Gr8tfuldad
Chumono
Thank you for the information. Everything I have read to date has urged caution, thank you for confirming this personal experience. I’ve seen Michaels trees, his advice certainly has some weight.
Cost efficiencies of mixes
- Thread starter 777thSunRay
- Start date
Gr8tfuldad
Chumono
It is the cost that will eventually lead to a very viable alternative. Unfortunately, once we have it, the price will be driven up by demand imho. Until then, the search continues.
River's Edge
Masterpiece
Cost effectiveness implies a choice that works and is within a budget. Both aspects being subjective. My mix of inorganic works out to a cost of .85 cents per lb. CAD. ( assuming 1:1:1:1 ) for the four components. This includes bulk bag purchases of Akadama, Black Lava, Horticultural pumice and granite grit. ( above cost includes tax, shipping or delivery ) This is important to me as I live out of town away from major centres. ( I do not include ferry costs as I normally combine errands with personal trips to the mainland)
I consider that very cost effective given the performance of these components and the variations that can be created with particle size and percentage changes within the combinations. With a bit of extra work ( resifting and cleaning ) often re-useable with very little breakdown over time. The bagged product has minimal dust/fines and there is almost no waste after sifting for size. Note: much lower labour cost than the time spent sifting bulk product from the landscape nursery with the high level of waste.
Attention to particle size allows one to manage desired type of root formation during the various developmental stages for bonsai.
I often wonder if those considering cost effectiveness take into account the real cost of the amount of useable material they actually end up with when purchasing bulk landscape material.
This translates lower when converted to USD, on average a reduction of 25% to 30% when the exchange rate is considered. Unless we go back to a few months in 2009 when we were on par for a bit.
So say .65 cents per lb. USD
I consider that very cost effective given the performance of these components and the variations that can be created with particle size and percentage changes within the combinations. With a bit of extra work ( resifting and cleaning ) often re-useable with very little breakdown over time. The bagged product has minimal dust/fines and there is almost no waste after sifting for size. Note: much lower labour cost than the time spent sifting bulk product from the landscape nursery with the high level of waste.
Attention to particle size allows one to manage desired type of root formation during the various developmental stages for bonsai.
I often wonder if those considering cost effectiveness take into account the real cost of the amount of useable material they actually end up with when purchasing bulk landscape material.
This translates lower when converted to USD, on average a reduction of 25% to 30% when the exchange rate is considered. Unless we go back to a few months in 2009 when we were on par for a bit.
So say .65 cents per lb. USD
Gr8tfuldad
Chumono
What is the cost per gallon? I am trying to compare to other options that are priced per gallon. Thanks.
River's Edge
Masterpiece
Ok, rough estimate 1 gallon = 3.8 litres
Filled a 4 litre pail with mix, after subtracting for the weight of the pail it weighs 4.5 lbs. Will not get into how damp the akadama was or if the granite grit was a higher percentage in the sample. LOL
Rough answer approximately $2.93 per gallon.
Hope that helps.
Gr8tfuldad
Chumono
That is very helpful! So my expense for 1 gallon of soil currently is 242% more than yours. To boot, you are using a “better” mix than me too. Now I am sure you can see why I am trying to crack the code here. At $10 a gallon, I am sure you would do the same if you haven’t already, which is probably how you got where you are, at $3 a gallon. Any guidance is appreciated.
Orion_metalhead
Masterpiece
Requisite link to Markyscott's excellent articles on soil physics:
www.bonsainut.com
Introductory Soil Physics - Updates
The most popular Bonsai Community in the WORLD!
River's Edge
Masterpiece
Guidance for what works in your area would help you the most!
Check with local clubs, wholesalers, distributors or manufacturers for the components you are after. Arrange for group discounts or group bulk purchases.
I would normally expect to do better in larger population centres on the east or west coast due to a larger supply and demand situation. But purchasing effectively always boils down to understanding your local market and purchasing in larger quantity. It usually helps the discount if you pay cash. Sometimes it is also a cost saving to arrange your own pick up and delivery.
Two of the items are specifically cheaper on the west coast due to point of origin and distance from source which greatly influences shipping costs. Akadama from Japan arrives on the west coast by boat. Pumice is often mined in the Pacific Northwest. ( not sure if the east coast geology includes local sources of pumice)
Currently, with supply issues Akadama is in short supply and accordingly the price is higher than normal if available. Even larger distributors have had trouble acquiring inventory. As I understand it, there have been production issues in the mines in Japan as well as shipping problems associated with the current global pandemic.
Gr8tfuldad
Chumono
As always, solid advice. Thank you.
777thSunRay
Mame
Cool, thanks again for the referrals! Could I get a sense of what I'll be paying for the pine bark? And what is the final verdict, with respect to the black lava rock? If I get the very inexpensive big bags of bigger rocks, and break them up with a mallet, will it serve as substrate? On another thread someone mentioned that it might not be the same, the big bags lacking iron, or something along those lines. Oh, and is there variable size for pumice, like there is for the pine chips? Thanks again!There are as many opinions about bonsai soil as there are bonsaiHowever, many people have had good results with an inorganic mix made from 1/3 akadama, 1/3 pumice, 1/3 lava rock. Piece size is determined by the size of your bonsai, generally, but 3/16" - 1/4" is a good size for many medium size and larger trees. Smaller trees in smaller pots you will want to go smaller - like 1/8". I sift my soil components and have a couple of Home Depot buckets on the side where I keep smaller piece sizes (though not dust/fines - you never want those regardless of your mix).
Green Thumb I'm talking about the local nursery chain like the one in Lake Forest. They have their soil components displayed as bags hanging on their wall. Just ask them about their smallest pine bark mix. You are looking for small chunks with a minimum of dust/fines.
Last edited:
BrierPatch
Mame
For a bag of extra fine pine bark in my area at a local nursery it's $4.99 1 CF so that's for pickup no delivery/shipping charges, shipping is where it gets expensive since a bag is around 30lbs. As for getting bigger rock and breaking it up I would say no, been there done that, way to much work for little return.
River's Edge
Masterpiece
Aged Pine bark is recommended as well as Douglas fir bark. Both are popular for Bonsai and Orchid growers. With Pine bark the properties vary widely depending on the type of pine. One should review the research and make an informed choice when selecting pine bark. Availability and use is heavily influenced by location. With pine bark being more prevalent on the east coast and Douglas fir on the west coast. For either choice it is wise to use aged and the proper sizing.
Keep in mind that Bark can alter the PH as well as the level of moisture retention.
Their is a lot of current research on bark types and uses as a substrate. A quick internet search for Bark substrate will provide a lot of good information.
Note: as an organic it is important to understand the rate of decomposition and the effects on the substrate mix when used.
Jcmmaple
Chumono
I use this and just sift out what I need
So what does this contain? Where is the label that shows contents?
Jcmmaple
Chumono
All I use it the pine bark, everything else goes in the landscape. 
Joe Dupre'
Omono
I'm curious. What exactly is it about Turface that is so bad. It's a high fired calcined clay product that doesn't break down I've read. Does it contain harmful materials, too high or low of a pH, too small of particle size.......what?? I've never used it so I'm kind of in the dark.
Mikecheck123
Omono
I just buy Bonsai Jack soil by clicking a mouse button.So I am placing my somewhat developed Bonsai or Pre Bonsai (btw what is the technical difference? Lol) into 1 gallon pots with Miracle-Gro Cactus Mix and about 1/3 - 1/2 Pumice. Suddenly I started wondering if I could use a more inexpensive option for one gallons to grow out. Does this mix give a growth boost that makes it worthwhile? I mean isn’t that the point of a more pricey mix? And by the way, is a totally inorganic mix better for one gallon, and if so any other component moderate priced like pumice? Or is it possible the miracle gro cactus mix is good for growth rate in this size?
Which leads me to ask about this. I read on a thread of the forum that at some point if you are growing a tree large, you can simply use very inexpensive compost with wood chips. And I imagine you’d use something like Microlife fertilizer for this. At what size pot can you start this mix? I’m using cactus mix and pumice for everything through one gallon. I use Miracle Gro potting soil in a couple two gallons.
Am I burning money using the miracle gro cactus mix and pumice for one gallon, or the potting soil for two gallon? And when, at what pot size, do I start with compost, wood chips and Microlife (if this is advisable, generally)
Thanks all, in advance
It's way worth it when you factor in the costs of hauling, sifting, and mixing components from three different places.
19Mateo83
Masterpiece
Just got done sifting a 40lb bag of tractor supply safe t dry. Got 2.5 gallons of 1/16- fines, 2.5 gallons of 1/16+ Size and 1.5 gallons of 1/8+ size. Napa 8822 is way more bang for your buck. Got 4.5 gallons of 1/8+ material out of a 40lb bag. Take it as you will.
Malix
Mame
I used NapA 8822 this year on about 15 trees. Never used it before..
Junipers, Elm, Hornbeam, P. mume, Ezo Spruce..trident maple and J Maple.
I used in place of Akadama and not on my best 5 trees. I sifted it well and used it 50/50 with sifted and graded pumice on my deciduous. And 35%/65% 8822/pumice for conifers. Both in large grow boxes and bonsai pots. My thoughts are as follows.
Overall I really like it. More importantly my trees grew gangbusters this year. I fertilized organic pellet with bi weekly drench of Fish emulsion/ and liquid kelp for humate's and micro's. This combination was great for plant health as far as I can tell. Got great shoot extension and wonderful healthy green leaf color thru-out the season.
Would I take it over Akadama ..? No, not for finished trees.. they will get Akadama/pumice mix when I can source it.
The pumice/DE mix is really light and has not settled into a firm soil on some trees . I like when a soil firms up a bit. It helps with watering so things don't wash away easily. For the record this is only the case in some pots others seemed to stiffen up a it more nicely. additionally the color of Akadama is also more helpful with knowing when to water. the DE does change color but its more subtle and takes more time to figure out what the water needs are.
This is only one year in.. I don't know what's happening inside the pots. We will see if the soil at the bottom is staying too wet or perhaps deteriorating in any way this year when I repot some of the trees that got 8822 mix 12 months ago . The beauty of Akadama is it has proven itself on some of the most beautiful, old and amazing Japanese and International trees on the planet. We know its fantastic properties.
But If I could not get Akadama I would imagine it will come down to 8822/DE and/or pine bark to substitute for Akadama.
I would Never use 100% DE. Not based on how it performed this year. Seems like it would be way too wet. I would only use it max 50% with either lava or preferably pumice. But I don't think I''d ever use 100% Akadama either not while I could cut it with pumice or lava..
Hope that helps..
Similar threads
