Cost efficiencies of mixes

[Orion_metalhead]

For the pine bark, I buy a bag of big chunks for mulch and run it through the shredder.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Thanks all for the great ideas. I just ordered 7 gallons of inorganic mix from Bonsai jack. I want to work one season with a premix and then start experimenting from there. I thought it would give me a good baseline to benchmark from…
Does anyone know if pine bark effects the ph of a mix? I was thinking of adding some to my deciduous trees to help in keeping them moist. Thanks all

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Incase anyone was wondering, I found the information I was asking about. It turns out that adding pine bark does lower the ph, which makes sense. The inorganic mix has a ph of 6.7 and using 20% of pine bark in the mix lowered the ph to 6.2. Reference can be found here. https://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t7797-pine-bark-in-soil-mixes

 

[BrierPatch]

Up here in the PNW we can “just” call up any gravel, sand, soil, or bark supplier and easily order delivery of pumice or red lava by the cubic yard. Try that? Sometimes the search criteria is “landscaping supply” or similar business categories.

Maybe 1/2 of the businesses will also do a five-gallon bucket rate, where you pull up, shovel it into your buckets, and then pay by each bucket.

Maybe 1/4 of them will do a “we load you haul” rate where, if you have a truck, they’ll dump a front loader bucket into your bed.

I just picked up a 5 gal bucket yesterday for $10 of black lava rock sold as 3/8" minus from a local landscape sand/gravel supplier. It was scoop your own so I scooped from the bottom of the pile to get more of the smaller rock. After sifting it I ended up with about 2.5 gal of 1/8" 2 gal+ of 1/4"-3/8" and a small pile of over 3/8". They also will load your truck with a full yard for about $100. Searching to find a place like @parhamr said searching landscape supply or rock/gravel supply worked better than searching for "pumice" or "lava" rock.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I just picked up a 5 gal bucket yesterday for $10 of black lava rock sold as 3/8" minus from a local landscape sand/gravel supplier. It was scoop your own so I scooped from the bottom of the pile to get more of the smaller rock. After sifting it I ended up with about 2.5 gal of 1/8" 2 gal+ of 1/4"-3/8" and a small pile of over 3/8". They also will load your truck with a full yard for about $100. Searching to find a place like @parhamr said searching landscape supply or rock/gravel supply worked better than searching for "pumice" or "lava" rock.

Getting pumice and lava in WA is not very difficult - because they mine it there

Getting either product east of the Mississippi is more difficult Best option I can come up with is shipping full cubic yard totes from Colorado. 1000 lbs of pumice costs about $250... and the shipping is another $250

 

[sorce]

You can use pine bark and Napa 8822 in equal parts. After sifting, that mixture costs between $1 and $2 per gallon. Six years in, I haven't found anything that won't grow well in it.

I saw your thread. Speaks well enough. My best growth year comes from a similar mix which they called "pine fines", in a lesser amount, that I haven't found (or tried finding really) again.

The simple answer for me is.

Name Brand - Most expensive.

Off Brand Large Bags - Mid Expensive.

Bulk Loads Dumped - Most Cost Efficient

Nothing works as roundedly well as 8822 and pine whatever.

Joe is in LA, @GroveKeeper was in hotter Florida, and I'm currently standing in 13F with snow covered trees on the ground that I won't need to think about again till growth in spring.



Joe was wise enough to rescue his mix from the compost pile too, because it is useful year after year.

Sorce

 

[leatherback]

Joe

did well!

 

[Joe Dupre']

Sorce, not to rub it in or anything , but some of my trees are budding out and a couple haven't lost their leaves yet. I repotted a third of my trees in the last week. Fall leaves and new sprouts on the same tree are a common sight this time of the year. The only white stuff I like is grits.

 

[777thSunRay]

For development purposes, I was pretty successful with a mix made up of mostly pumice and a little pine bark, but these trees were usually planted in large pond baskets or Anderson flats where drainage was never going to be a problem. For trees in bonsai pots, I would go with the traditional blend with no organic, and I didn't have to worry about the soil clogging until the tree's rootball had grown and taken up all the void space in the soil.

Thank you for this! I am a little unclear about the concept with Anderson Flats. I went to their website, and the flats seemed to be trays for plants. Did I miss something? I did see that they have very large pots. Is this what you are referring to?
So then, if I am using Bonsai pots, say maximum 1 gallon for now, that I should simply use a 'traditional' fully inorganic mix? Perhaps one like Bonsai Jack's (or any other mix you might better recommend) Would 2 gallons or more then fit with your initial advice, about pumice and wood chips?
And one more question, for which I think the answer will bring clarity lol... what about my very small to small plants? Pots below 1 gallon, as small as 2 or 3 inches, and future seedlings and cuttings... what is a good substrate to build up from? Is the Miracle Gro Cactus mix (or maybe better, a similar mix from a Bonsai shop) okay, coconut coif, perlite, peat moss, maybe ground pumice, any of these okay? And progressively add more of the larger fragments of inorganic substrates?
Thank you all once more!

 

[leatherback]

I am a little unclear about the concept with Anderson Flats. I went to their website, and the flats seemed to be trays for plants. Did I miss something?

This is exactly when they are. If you look carefully you will notice the bottom of the trays are not closed but consist of mesh: This allows very fast drainage, and well-aerated substrate. On top of this, roots that grow down will stop growing once they hit the mesh (dry out) and 'backbud' creating more, finer roots rather than a few long runners.

 

[777thSunRay]

This is exactly when they are. If you look carefully you will notice the bottom of the trays are not closed but consist of mesh: This allows very fast drainage, and well-aerated substrate. On top of this, roots that grow down will stop growing once they hit the mesh (dry out) and 'backbud' creating more, finer roots rather than a few long runners.

Okay, got it! I see that it's an air pruning system. What is the next step, when you outgrow the Anderson Flats and Bands? Is it the Pond Baskets that @Bonsai Nut mentions above? I'm curious, what brand are these?

 

[777thSunRay]

I should also add, I was checking out pond baskets on Amazon. I then searched ‘air pruning pots’, and they are a comparable price if you pick the right one. Plus they look really cool lol, don’t know if that means they work better hah… Another and least expensive item I saw was simple cloth pots which also claim to have air rooting results (specified as unwoven, if anyone knows why) So what do folks think of these three options?

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

I called the two largest stone, gravel and landscape suppliers in nj. They said due to shipping issues from west coast they don’t have lava rock or pumice. He said their is no change in availability that he has heard about. It’s good to know down the road this is an option. Thank you guys

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Just so I am clear, you guys are having success with Napa 8822? If so, is this a replacement for akadama?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

This is exactly when they are. If you look carefully you will notice the bottom of the trays are not closed but consist of mesh: This allows very fast drainage, and well-aerated substrate. On top of this, roots that grow down will stop growing once they hit the mesh (dry out) and 'backbud' creating more, finer roots rather than a few long runners.

Also, because they are built to hold other pots for commercial nurseries, they are very heavy-duty. I have a couple hundred of them and I have only had to throw out one or two (usually because I stepped on them).

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Just so I am clear, you guys are having success with Napa 8822? If so, is this a replacement for akadama?

Not trying to start a soil war here... but I am probably going to.

Napa 8822 and Turface are almost indistinguishable in terms of piece size and performance. I wouldn't use either... but that's just me. I have used Turface in the past, and had poor results with it. The top of the soil would dry too quickly, while the soil in the bottom of the pot remained saturated. Perhaps for shohin and smaller trees, where you are looking for tiny piece size. Make sure you sift it well, because 50% will be fines. Only keep the largest pieces.

Life without Turface

 

[Joe Dupre']

Just so I am clear, you guys are having success with Napa 8822? If so, is this a replacement for akadama?

Yes, very good success. Replacement?? As good as?? I'd describe it as a very viable alternative. Keep in mind that akadama is used in Japan partly because it's availble and cheap in Japan. The Chinese, who developed the art that became bonsai, probably used something different for hundreds of years with evident success.

 

[penumbra]

"Mother Earth Volcanite" but I think the product was discontinued.

Apparently this is so. I bought a few bags off Amazon but they no longer list it. They do list other brands.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

Just so I am clear, you guys are having success with Napa 8822? If so, is this a replacement for akadama?

First year, I used 100% 8822, sifted, and had good success. I top dressed with sphagnum moss to alleviate the drying out issue bonsai nut spoke about. Last year I tried 100% saf-t-sorb, from tractor supply co. Had good success. It broke down a little more than the 8822. But was heavier so didnt float as much. This past year, I added perlite to the saf-t-sorb to see if it would increase water drainage, which it did, but the perlite floats. Next year I am trying a mixture of these with increase pine bark and poultry grit for weight.

 

[August44]

Go to OC Farm Supply and get yourself some 40 lb bags of pumice for about $12 each. Tell them you are a member of the Orange County Bonsai Society and you get a discount.

Go to Green Thumb and get yourself some pine bark micro nuggets. If my memory serves me correctly, they stock both mini and micro sizes - you want the micro. They should be very small pieces - about 1/2" and less.

Add the pine bark to the pumice at about a 10%/90% to 20%/80% blend. Finished!

Avoid adding any potting soil or similar organic product to your bonsai soil that will clog the soil. If you water your bonsai and the water doesn't immediately pass through the top of your soil and flow out through the drain holes (leaving wet soil particles behind) your soil is too dense / clogged.

Just to clarify, what size of pumice are you talking about? Do you sift out the fines under 1/8" so you have what size pumice left? On the bark...do you sift out the fines there? With what size screen? I have access to bark, branches, trees etc that were run through a chipper and has been laying in piles in the forest here for a long time. I also have deteriorated granite in the Mts here that comes down from the granite cliffs that ranges from sand to 1/2"-3/4". Can I assume that the bark would be ok screened 1/2" - 1/4" and could the deteriorated granite become part of the mix too if screened right? Thanks for help!

PS: Where I live, I don't have easy access to the pumice or the bark you mention in the stores.