Cosmic Bonsai - First Attempt

[cishepard]

Much of Laurents book is devoted to his thoughts and ideas about bonsai, it’s relationship to the modern world vs traditional influences, artistic harmony and Kozumikku (Cosmic) Style philosophy. Indeed, very little space is given to actual training technique. His styling might resemble older Asian examples, but his thought processes are on a different level.

 

[rockm]

Much of Laurents book is devoted to his thoughts and ideas about bonsai, it’s relationship to the modern world vs traditional influences, artistic harmony and Kozumikku (Cosmic) Style philosophy. Indeed, very little space is given to actual training technique. His styling might resemble older Asian examples, but his thought processes are on a different level.

"His styling might resemble older Asian examples, but his thought processes are on a different level."

A distinction without much of a difference...IMO. Same results for the tree, not really a "resemblance" to the old Octopus style, but facsimiles...There are old woodblock prints of this style that show the exact same thing, only without the battlebots. Take a run through this article. Best I could find online. Older bonsai books have better examples in Ukiyo-e prints. Ukiyo-e style woodblocks began in the 1600's.

 

[cishepard]

Sorry @rockm, but I am not seeing the correlation. Different stories are told for every individual tree, and we add scrolls and companion plants and figures to further the understanding of each of those stories. Modern stories can be a twist on the past and yet still be fresh and facinating. I don’t think Mr. Darrieux is creating facsimiles of older trees, perhaps a reading of his book is needed to grasp a better feel for his ideas.

I also feel like a major component of the style is imagination, and creating something that no one has ever seen, maybe even defying comprehension. It pleases me that my “incoherent “ tree fits that criteria and is a facsimile of nothing : )

From the article you linked:



From “Cosmic Bonsai”:

 

[rockm]

I can't come up with the best image examples because they're not digital and reside in books, lot of books. (also have a look at Kimura's junipers--pretty similar?)

Let's just say adding a spiky pot, a weird display item (space creature, whatever) and saying "every tree has a story" is just rationalization. The end images of this "style" and older styles are not only similar, they're pretty much the same regardless of the "story" their creator assigns them.

"Stories" "told" by trees aren't dictated, or rather, the best bonsai don't dictate a "story" beyond what's apparent. Their stories are imagined by the viewer. You can steer the viewer only so much, particularly if the entire "story" feels too contrived and forced. I find both in this "new" "style" Even the name is forced ''Kozumikku" Cosmic? get it?

 

[cishepard]

The end images of this "style" and older styles are not only similar, they're pretty much the same regardless of the "story" their creator assigns them.

Ok fair enough, but by this logic every broom styled tree is pretty much the same, every informal upright, every cascade etc. etc. because the style has been done by others in the past, even though current respected bonsai artists are bringing fresh ideas to the table and each individual tree is different in subtle and not so subtle ways. And that an art form cannot and should not evolve based on these variations and even to the point of assigning new names to a style.
No other art form works this way, and I always find it curious how vehement some people get in their dislike or disapproval of a style, be it music, painting, visual arts or even bonsai.
And yet, here is a quote from Leo in NE Illinois in another thread:

“Bonsai trees are NOT exactly to scale miniatures of their normal forms. Bonsai is an abstract representation meant to evoke an emotional response of a scene from nature. All our "rules" about trunk diameter and tree height are from Art Appreciation and Art classes not from measuring trees in nature. "The Rules" are about visual arts, not botany.
Bonsai is like Jazz with horticulture, it is free form. It is not as structured as music of the Baroque. Think Monet rather than Rembrandt. Or even Salvador Dali than Rembrandt.“

I guess the emotional response of disdain is legitimate, but Salvador Dali? I believe he would have loved Cosmic Bonsai!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Picasso, I like it.

 

[rockm]

Ok fair enough, but by this logic every broom styled tree is pretty much the same, every informal upright, every cascade etc. etc. because the style has been done by others in the past, even though current respected bonsai artists are bringing fresh ideas to the table and each individual tree is different in subtle and not so subtle ways. And that an art form cannot and should not evolve based on these variations and even to the point of assigning new names to a style.
No other art form works this way, and I always find it curious how vehement some people get in their dislike or disapproval of a style, be it music, painting, visual arts or even bonsai.
And yet, here is a quote from Leo in NE Illinois in another thread:

“Bonsai trees are NOT exactly to scale miniatures of their normal forms. Bonsai is an abstract representation meant to evoke an emotional response of a scene from nature. All our "rules" about trunk diameter and tree height are from Art Appreciation and Art classes not from measuring trees in nature. "The Rules" are about visual arts, not botany.
Bonsai is like Jazz with horticulture, it is free form. It is not as structured as music of the Baroque. Think Monet rather than Rembrandt. Or even Salvador Dali than Rembrandt.“

I guess the emotional response of disdain is legitimate, but Salvador Dali? I believe he would have loved Cosmic Bonsai!

Oh c'mon, it's not disdain, no one is putting you down, no one is preventing this guy from doing his thing...

I simply have a hard time with someone appropriating an existing form of bonsai and saying they're pioneered it, when they've only added some extraneous stuff to make it seem new. and then getting huffy when people point that out. This is primarily repackaging with a lot of science fiction added, which is fine, but just be honest about it.

 

[penumbra]

Many fair points from both (or all) sides. No winner here and no loser.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

You know, I never read, or heard Nick Lenz say he was doing anything "new", yet he was the most original, creative mind in bonsai I ever met. He did what he wanted, you could like it or not, and he did not give a damn if you liked it or not. But Nick had the modesty to not claim to be creating a "new style". I don't see a need to rush out a declare there to be a "Nick Lenz Style", maybe Bonzo Bonsai.

Style is not that important except for judging "Formal Upright" is the style with the most "rigid" rules, and distinguishing between "Semi-Cascade" and "Full Cascade". Most everything else is just debating Art History.

I still have no clue how you can define "Cosmic" bonsai, since we have not to this date discovered any life beyond that on planet Earth. No judge could know what an alien tree would look like because nobody has seen an alien tree. It is just bologna. The only reference for "tree" we have are trees we have here on Earth. The Japanese pretty well covered them, heck, Nick Lenz could work with their system.

Enjoy these photos from the 2019 retrospective Nick Lenz show at the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum. I think these photos were originally from RockM or one of the other Fellow BNUTS here, Point is, this is how creative Nick Lenz was, and he felt no urge to "name a new style". He did what he wanted to, and we were free to enjoy his creations, without labels, names and styles and rules getting in the way.









click to enlarge thumbnails

Oh, Nick did name some of his bonsai, for example Penelope was "waiting for her man", and the Thuja was called the "Demon Cedar" he had a larch forest with rusting tanks that he named after a French WW2 forest Battlefield. His creations truly were sculptures. And like many sculptures, they can have poetic names to clarify their message intent, if they had a message. Some had no particular message.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Look! Cosmic!



Also unless @cishepard wonders about this photo, I am NOT making fun of her work - this is just the natural growing style of a Harry Lauder's Walking Stick.

 

[ShadyStump]

While I'll generally agree with @Leo in N E Illinois assertion of, "nothing new under the sun," and personally dislike it when someone has the narcissistic audacity to try claiming something as new when it is in fact a revival of something old and forgotten, I'm also of the mind the term, "new," can be used in a relative manner.
New to this generation. New to this market. New application of something old. It may be something very old, but in these contexts it's undeniably new.

So I'll say let's give @cishepard a break, and let's see what happens. If you hate the name, call it octopus style. If you hate the style, unfollow the thread and move along. No need to get Reddit-y on BNut.

 

[Underdog]

So I'll say let's give @cishepard a break, and let's see what happens. If you hate the name, call it octopus style. If you hate the style, unfollow the thread and move along. No need to get Reddit-y on BNut.

Yes! +1 Good points on both sides made.

 

[Cajunrider]

While I'll generally agree with @Leo in N E Illinois assertion of, "nothing new under the sun," and personally dislike it when someone has the narcissistic audacity to try claiming something as new when it is in fact a revival of something old and forgotten, I'm also of the mind the term, "new," can be used in a relative manner.
New to this generation. New to this market. New application of something old. It may be something very old, but in these contexts it's undeniably new.

So I'll say let's give @cishepard a break, and let's see what happens. If you hate the name, call it octopus style. If you hate the style, unfollow the thread and move along. No need to get Reddit-y on BNut.

I don't mind whatever the style is called or even the claim that it is new. However I got a chuckle out of the claim that the thought process is at another level. What level is it? We can think cosmic all we want but as twisted as they are the trees are still all trees on earth. All are still subjected to gravity and need energy from light to survive. I myself think it would be cool to create a tree in a shape that appears to be free from gravity and under total surround artificial light so that the foliage and branches go in all direction. An example would be a Chinese elm with a central root sphere being fed by water spray and branches radiate out in all direction around that root ball. That would be a little closer to cosmic.

All that said, I don't see any hate in any post in the thread. They are all thoughtful arguments and comments.

 

[cishepard]

I don't mind whatever the style is called or even the claim that it is new. However I got a chuckle out of the claim that the thought process is at another level. What level is it?

What I meant by the comment on Laurents’ thought level was that he devotes most of his book to his thought on what the style means to him. How he felt constrained as an artist by the Japanese cultural influences which led him to question why we would not use our own modern impressions to create bonsai. He considers his cultural upbringing to be steeped in the fantasy and imagination of graphic novels, science fiction and visionary filmmakers like Disney and Tim Burton.
So by saying, "His styling might resemble older Asian examples, but his thought processes are on a different level”, what I am referring to is that he seems to be very passionate about the ideas behind his art and what led him to further develop his style and why it is not just a revival of an older technique.

 

[cishepard]

I’m not offended by any of the comments in this thread, I just really enjoyed the book, Cosmic Bonsai and I love the look of Laurent’s trees, just as I love Nick Lentz’s work and all the spooky “fairy tale” style trees that people create. I wanted to try my hand at something imaginative myself, which I am pleased with and plan on doing more along these lines.
I also adore my huge contorted hazelnut bush out front and was certainly influenced by it!

 

[Paradox]

I kinda agree with the comment about straight trunks with wild curvy branches not "making sense" from the perspective of how a tree grows as a result of its growing conditions. That is a bit of a purist point of view though, which I do tend to lean towards.

But it does look kinda cool and different.
So if @cishepard wants to style her trees in that way, it is her tree, her choice.

 

[rockm]

What I meant by the comment on Laurents’ thought level was that he devotes most of his book to his thought on what the style means to him. How he felt constrained as an artist by the Japanese cultural influences which led him to question why we would not use our own modern impressions to create bonsai. He considers his cultural upbringing to be steeped in the fantasy and imagination of graphic novels, science fiction and visionary filmmakers like Disney and Tim Burton.
So by saying, "His styling might resemble older Asian examples, but his thought processes are on a different level”, what I am referring to is that he seems to be very passionate about the ideas behind his art and what led him to further develop his style and why it is not just a revival of an older technique.

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Many of us who have been doing bonsai for decades are not really all that compelled by Japanese cultural influences on design, as much as a compelling interest in natural things. I was drawn to bonsai long ago not by its "Japanese-ness," but by its natural forms (which are part and parcel of Japanese esthetics and bonsai techniques BTW). I grew up hunting fishing and enjoying outdoors. I find that intimate sense of nature is a disappearing thing these days, supplanted by fantasy and/or artificial experiences. I also have found that graphic novels present their own set of imposed conventions for all their "groundbreaking." Some just use old stories, jumped up with robots/serpents/iron bikinied damsels in distress and a lot of dark (and curiously) repetitive imagery.

I don't think I'm "special" or my thoughts are on a different level because my initial draw to bonsai wasn't based on an interest in Japanese culture. The appeal is what it is. Thinking that bonsai is all about being "Japanese" and adhering closely to every little move or "rule" is silly as well. The West constantly sees "the rules" as constraints, somehow imposed to grind them to their will. In fact they are the keys to freedom and "higher levels of thought" whatever that means. The "rules" were never "rules" There is no enforcement, just trees that look natural--or unnatural depending on they're applied and who is applying them. Ignoring visual basics (which is what "the rules" really are) means what you're making has a higher chance of looking like sh#$ and losing the viewer (consumer of your image).

To say you're "breaking away" from bonsai because you're too constrained, IMO, is plain silly. You can't do bonsai and not use some of the esthetics, techniques, thought processes that have been used by the Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese and other Asian countries. Funny Laurent doesn't mention Vietnamese bonsai, or or some schools of Chinese Penjing, which also have a very similar dynamic to what he's doing.

 

[ibakey]

Hi Cishepard, how are your cosmic douglas firs doing? I hope the project is still going strong!

Personally for me as an architect, its not about labels or styles. Those are just boxes that allows people to compartmentalize their thoughts in a general way.
What I find interesting from Laurent or perhaps different is that even if the octopus or random wiggly branches are tried in the past, he revived it and expanded on it.

There are trends in design and revivals. The fringes are usually the ones to bring about change as they say, " A Master candle maker will never in his mind think about a light bulb."

It is the idea of a tree that is unbounded by earth's parameters. So what if plant life hasn't been discovered outside of earth yet, if our ancestors didn't think about locomotives, we would still be riding horses.
Anyway, I find it fascinating as an idea of trees not governed by certain parameters, or perhaps governed by the strictest parameters like the square trees in European gardens, the symbol of human domination over plant life.

I hope you continue.

 

[pandacular]

It is the idea of a tree that is unbounded by earth's parameters. So what if plant life hasn't been discovered outside of earth yet, if our ancestors didn't think about locomotives, we would still be riding horses.

It’s also worth noting that the name came long after the style was established. It had been called (Tim) Burton style for many years, and still is informally in Europe.

 

[vp999]

I tried twisting the trunk and tying it to a knot and what not to some of my young princess persimmons last summer...None survived