mwar15
Omono
They sell it on the FB auctions. Or go to a local scrap yard and buy some and anneal it yourself
COPPER WIRE
- Thread starter August44
- Start date
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
I tried the bracelets also and a elbow brace with . Copper in it . Had about the same results as you . But working copper wire has a noticeable effect .
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
Bingo in the past I found a copper wire supplier . Ordered some and annealed it . At the time it was all I could find . Today I anneal what I can get easily . And get the rest from a bonsai supplier . Simple and just as cost effective . I just don’t turn down wire where I find it . Considering the ease of prepping it .
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
If nobody minds my aside, I need to work on my wiring, but I usually just use junk stuff I scrounge so I'm never certain of the quality or gauge.
What gauges do you all recommend as the basic necessities, and what is the precise difference between annealed and non-annealed besides color? My understanding is it's supposed to be softer until worked, but has anyone tried non-annealed copper and noticed a significant difference in usability or performance?
Thanks for putting up with me.
What gauges do you all recommend as the basic necessities, and what is the precise difference between annealed and non-annealed besides color? My understanding is it's supposed to be softer until worked, but has anyone tried non-annealed copper and noticed a significant difference in usability or performance?
Thanks for putting up with me.
When it comes to thick copper wire (low numbers for the gauge), it’s just plain unusable if it hasn’t been annealed. For thin wires you can probably get away with using wire that isn’t annealed, but you run a greater risk of damaging the branch because the wire is too stiff relative to its diameter and, therefore, requires an excessive amount of force to apply compared with annealed wire of the same gauge.
I have found that 4 gauge is somewhat scarce but, as mentioned, maybe double up some wire a be as effective with less straining. I did find a wire store online that will sell 4 Gauge a bit cheaper than anywhere else that I can find, but I would have to anneal it. I have watched several videos and think I could get that done. I liked the guy using a propane weed burner in his little oven made out of cement blocks. He had it red hot in no time! Here's the link to the store:
www.wireandcableyourway.com
4 AWG Solid Bare Copper Wire, Soft Drawn
4 AWG Solid Bare Copper Wire, Soft Drawn
www.wireandcableyourway.com
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
I've experienced this with cheap steel wire, less so with aluminum, just didn't realize copper was so similar in performance.
I'm looking to go after some ficus and maybe a couple different elms next. I like guy wires, weights and cut and grow for working trunks and primary branches, but I'm only going to get so much detail out of that. So what gauges would you recommend before I blow the piggy bank on stuff I don't need?
I wouldn't use copper wire for ficus or elms. It's not necessary. Aluminum will work and is substantially cheaper. I only use copper wire for conifers where the extra holding power is really needed. For aluminum wire, I use a lot of 2.5 mm and 1.5 mm. It's nice to have a bit of 5 mm handy as well for thicker branches.
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
Annealing metal has the opposite effect on copper compared to most metals . Heating and cooling copper makes it soft and easy to work . Compared to other metals like steel it is a process to harden metal like heat treating a knife . When annealed or softened copper is worked it becomes harder and stronger . This is also the opposite of other metals . These characteristics make annealed copper ideal for bonsai . It is soft easy to wrap a branch as you wrap and bend the branch it becomes harder for holding power . Aluminum is easier to remove ad it does not harden so some would say better for practice . But I encourage you to learn to use copper . There is only one way to get good with it . It can be removed especially if it is freshly put on and when it is hard you just re anneal it . The correct gage or size to use is not so simple . Old slow grown trees even if the same species require more holding power than young fast grown trees . More extreme movement also needs more power . So you can use a larger wire . Or you can double wrap right beside the first wrap . Double and triple wraps are under used by novices . A perfect wiring job is almost a art itself . Appreciated for the skill of the artist . But no where near this level is needed to be effective . Don’t practice on your tree . Practice on a cut branch or simulate materiel . There are lots of resources to explain good wiring . . Using tie downs is very effective and removes the risk of wire scars and maintenance . Some disapprove of it but large nurseries use it effectively for good reason . It’s all a means to a end . I dislike hanging weights . They can spell disaster in the wind . And animals love to play with them . Hope this helps . Considering the ease of annealing and the Ben if it’s I see no reason to use non annealed copper . Some say the wire is already hard and stiff so it had great holding power for its size . As long as you can get it on . This is a misconception . Annealed wire is as strong after only a small amount of working
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Absolutely a significant difference. Even the thinner copper wires are harder to use if not properly soft. It will often kink around the branch instead of flowing in nice curves. Try out the difference yourself and see.
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Personal experience is also hooey! After heavy copper work hands all cramped up and carpel tendon problem worse than before
. 6 mm is all possible to do here and needs to be dead soft.
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Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Unless having weaker hands multi wraps NOT recommended by pros if not absolutely needed. Also harder to work multi strands around branches/leaves/buds/needles so very good reason for "under" use by one and all. Also more unsightly. Great wiring is actually "art". Bonsai is not.
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks, all, for the detailed explanations! Just didn't seem worth starting a new thread for a couple of noobish questions, and I feel much more informed now.
Maiden69
Masterpiece
Home Depot sometimes have single 4 and 6 awg... but I have been buying from Wire and Cable Your Way as well. annealing in my fire pit is a PITA, I'm building a smokeless pit, that should heat up more than the regular pit and with more even heat.
Ben in Kzoo
Yamadori
I give you all a ton of credit for annealing yourself
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
Home made annealed wire pics are primarily for finished product colour info . This is a very simple process . Non annealed wire is shiny copper colour . Some bonsai references say use a paper or rice paper fire . A hot fire is more consistent . Bbq right on the coals or fire . Or a burnt down to coals wood fire . What your going for is a slight cherry red colour when hot . It only takes a few minutes . Then I drop in a pail of water . To rapid cool . Adjust the amount of heat with hot colour to experiment . Fir correct softness . Wire can be reheated NP . It’s very simple and a great amount can be processed in a short time 
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PonderingSage:
Shohin
August,
Call around to see if there is a metal recycler in town to get scrap. Thats your cheapest bet… although it will usually involve untwisting cable sections, coiling them up and annealing . Which is pretty straightforward (See frozentreehugger above).
The tricky part is that you will usually end up with smaller coils lengths than if you were to buy.
Also, doubling wire could work and is nice if you are going to split further up the trunk into sub-trunks.
Call around to see if there is a metal recycler in town to get scrap. Thats your cheapest bet… although it will usually involve untwisting cable sections, coiling them up and annealing . Which is pretty straightforward (See frozentreehugger above).
The tricky part is that you will usually end up with smaller coils lengths than if you were to buy.
Also, doubling wire could work and is nice if you are going to split further up the trunk into sub-trunks.
Frozentreehugger
Masterpiece
try electrical contractor . As a source . Considering the price of copper has increased there is demand for scrap . Hence I’m sure they collect scrap from jobs . And sell it to scrap yards when they have enough . Also there is labour involved to remove insulation by them or the yard . So it is less valuable with insulation on it . They may only have short cuttings but never hurts to ask .
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