ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
I'm guessing it's just already annealed, sold as "soft" for buyers who don't know what "annealed" means.
Annealing Copper Wire Finally and Need a Little Advice Pls
- Thread starter August44
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Attmos
Shohin
As I said, electrical wire run in every single household is a soft copper. No need for annealing. At large gauge it's plenty stiff enough. But if you absolutely need to use the best of what the industry says is good, more power to you. Just makes things more complicated.
Attmos
Shohin
No... There is soft copper, and hard copper. Soft copper is what we use for electrical wire and is soft, but hard enough, to be used the way botonists use copper wire. I have no freaking idea why going through the process of annealing copper is even a topic for conversation.
I think maybe metallurgy might need to be on the reading list or something.
Attmos
Shohin
There is a difference in how the copper is forged for use. Soft and Hard copper products exist. Electrical wire is an example of soft copper usage.. gas piping is an example of hard copper. Both have specific uses in construction, and electrical components.
In my opinion, there's no need to by hard copper that you have to anneal. just buy soft copper wire. Just because it's called soft doesn't mean it has no rigidity, it has a lot. More than is thought here anyway, I guess.
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Attmos
Shohin
The conversation here blows my mind. lol
Attmos
Shohin
You didn't read what I said, did you? lol
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Ok well I can only tell you that I got a hold of electrical wire at one point and decided to recycle it for use on my trees.
I stripped the plastic coating off the wire and it was still pretty stiff and not as bendable as annealed copper. Yes I could bend it but it wasnt as soft as annealed wire, which Ive used plenty of.
I coiled it into coils and annealed it and it was easier to work with after that until it work hardened which is what copper does.
People are not using copper piping to make into bonsai wire.
Most people here are using electrical wire they got from a house that got stripped and some are buying electrical wire at Home Depot/Lowes, etc.
You say all electrical wire is the same so the electrical wire people are using shouldnt somehow be harder than what you are referring to as electrical wire?
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Attmos
Shohin
I was an electrician for several years. I've done a lot of different trades over the years.
It sounds to me like people are buying purpose built copper wire made for the industry, but I'm not familiar enough yet with the process or what people use. It didn't sound like people were talking about electrical wire.
As far as it being too difficult to bend, there are different gauges of electrical wire ranging from microscopic to 2 gauge. Pick the gauge that works for you.
ps. it work hardens too.
Attmos
Shohin
Also, I'm sorry I sound... condescending. It's a character flaw I'm working on. When something that seems obvious to me isn't recognized, I get impatient, even if I end up being wrong. Anyway, I apologize.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Not sure what you are referring to. But your last few posts very clearly show you do not understand the benefits of copper wire for bonsai. It is desired to have annealed write that work hardens. If you use softer blends then just take alu.
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
@Attmos in bonsai we use copper wire by wrapping it in spiral around a branch or trunk, then bending the limb into the shape we want. Using raw wire as is can be done in a limited capacity, but we often find ourselves work with lengths of wire as long as your arm or better, but by the time we're done applying it it's lost more than half that length. That's allot of work on the wire, which makes it harden. This isn't a bad thing because as it gets harder it holds the limb in place more firmly.
When working it that much, though, the raw wire as it's often found will become brittle and often break. To avoid this and give us more working time we prefer annealed copper. It goes on with less effort and allows us to adjust more as we go along. These are all important factors when you find yourself wiring EVERY SINGLE branch of a rather large tree, especially with species that have wood that resists shaping.
None of this applies to running the same kind of wire for electrical work because it's being bent and twisted minimally over what we consider extremely long lengths. The issue of work hardening just doesn't come up much in that context because you're trying to do exactly the opposite, though I'm certain you've had a licensed electrician caution you about messing with it too much to avoid breakage and shorts.
If you talk to a machinist, jeweler, or other craft metalworker, though, they often work with copper on custom pieces, and they deal with the issue of work hardening allot. We're not quite to that level, but wiring trees does routinely bring us into that sort of concern.
On the hobbyist level, figuring out how to source and anneal our own copper can have a big effect on our budget, just like other hobbies have people looking for low cost alternatives to common issues. Professionals tend to make enough money that it's worth getting purpose produced stuff that doesn't come with this level of discussion.
When working it that much, though, the raw wire as it's often found will become brittle and often break. To avoid this and give us more working time we prefer annealed copper. It goes on with less effort and allows us to adjust more as we go along. These are all important factors when you find yourself wiring EVERY SINGLE branch of a rather large tree, especially with species that have wood that resists shaping.
None of this applies to running the same kind of wire for electrical work because it's being bent and twisted minimally over what we consider extremely long lengths. The issue of work hardening just doesn't come up much in that context because you're trying to do exactly the opposite, though I'm certain you've had a licensed electrician caution you about messing with it too much to avoid breakage and shorts.
If you talk to a machinist, jeweler, or other craft metalworker, though, they often work with copper on custom pieces, and they deal with the issue of work hardening allot. We're not quite to that level, but wiring trees does routinely bring us into that sort of concern.
On the hobbyist level, figuring out how to source and anneal our own copper can have a big effect on our budget, just like other hobbies have people looking for low cost alternatives to common issues. Professionals tend to make enough money that it's worth getting purpose produced stuff that doesn't come with this level of discussion.
alphaparrot
Seed
I can confirm, and it doesn't take much heat to already make a substantial difference in the tensile strength of copper. An electroformed copper piece straight out of the bath can be brittle to work with, even with substantial thickness. Applying pressure will tend to break the piece rather than bend it. After careful grinding and polishing with a high-speed dremel, though, which imparts substantial heat to the copper (I need to wear gloves to handle the pieces sometimes), the copper is far less brittle, can be worked more easily, and as a result is also stronger and more resistant to breakage. Work it too much after it's cooled? You break the piece. And that's nothing to do with the composition or how it's made; electroformed copper is formed atom by atom from pure elemental copper, and in a well-functioning bath, there should be next to no impurities. The source of that copper? Usually rigid copper pipes, but I've also used more-pliable annealed copper wire. There is no difference in the final outcome; all pieces come out of the bath hard, and must be heated at least a little to soften and become pliable. It's just physics; you need to give the copper atoms enough energy to settle into a more-flexible low-energy arrangement. Work the copper too much, and the planes of copper lattice are forced into angles relative to each other where it would take more energy to move them again. Think of it like crumpled aluminum foil; a sheet which has been crumpled and then pulled flat is less flexible than a totally fresh sheet, due to all the little tiny planes (often shaped as tiny triangles) at angles to one another.
19Mateo83
Masterpiece
Fire up your charcoal grill, when coals are hot add wire. When wire is red hot remove wire. Place wire on ground to cool. Add grill grate then add steaks. Cook steaks to desired doneness. Crack a beer, eat steaks and admire your perfectly annealed bonsai wire. Easy peasy 
Sorry alpha, we are talking about annealing copper wire here. I have about no idea what you are even talking about and 90-99% of it makes no sense to me at all. I have worked quite a bit of properly annealed wire and don't find it breaking when bent or re-bent. If it does, it was annealed at to high a temperature. My lack of understanding your text might be that you are a rocket scientist and I am not.
Gabler
Masterpiece
Well said.
Attmos
Shohin
I understand what it's for, regarding bonsai. Pretty simple.
I guess my point, this whole time, is just that residential copper wire is very soft. VERY soft. 10 gauge is really easy to bend, 12 gauge gets a little tougher.
I wasn't understanding why people wanted to anneal hard copper wire just to get it to be as soft as soft copper wire. I guess I think now, that people want the wire to be even softer than electrical wire already is.
I am not an idiot, it's just that no one explained to me that they need the wire to be even softer. I've had no problem using electrical wire thus far... so.....
I think no one is trying to understand what I'M saying. lol If you had it would have been very easy just to say "Hey, we want it to be softer than that.".
There really IS soft and hard copper.
Attmos
Shohin
Electrical wire bends as much as you want it too. It's super soft, so I'm not exactly sure what the difference is. Have you ever held it, or used it?
When running wire through a house, it makes bends and twists all over the place... it has to be flexible to do this. It won't break, and it does work harden.
No one actually read what I said about it. It's ok though, I understand electrical wire. If you want to go through all the trouble of annealing good for you.
You could always give electrical wire a chance one of these days though.... it's exactly what you're talking about in every respect. It's not brittle, and doesn't become brittle unless frozen.
You’re making this more complicated than it is. No one really gets hold of “hard copper” (extruded) wire since it’s generally only used in high tension wires or industrial applications. Residential copper, while it may be soft as its annealed in the factory, is usually repurposed and has since been work hardened and no longer usable for bonsai until annealed again to resoften.I understand what it's for, regarding bonsai. Pretty simple.
I guess my point, this whole time, is just that residential copper wire is very soft. VERY soft. 10 gauge is really easy to bend, 12 gauge gets a little tougher.
I wasn't understanding why people wanted to anneal hard copper wire just to get it to be as soft as soft copper wire. I guess I think now, that people want the wire to be even softer than electrical wire already is.
I am not an idiot, it's just that no one explained to me that they need the wire to be even softer. I've had no problem using electrical wire thus far... so.....
I think no one is trying to understand what I'M saying. lol If you had it would have been very easy just to say "Hey, we want it to be softer than that.".
There really IS soft and hard copper.
Attmos
Shohin
I just buy it new. But I get what you're saying.
JeffS73
Chumono
Dead-soft annealed wire used for bonsai is a world away from electrical 'soft', particularly at the larger gauges. You have to handle it to know, the difference is huge.
Regarding colour of annealed wire, annealing in industrial practice occurs in anoxic environments, oxidation can't happen, so no wastage or discolouration from oxidation. I lose about 1% in my amateur kiln process, and have to pickle to de-scale my wire, yet more processes and waste.
Regarding colour of annealed wire, annealing in industrial practice occurs in anoxic environments, oxidation can't happen, so no wastage or discolouration from oxidation. I lose about 1% in my amateur kiln process, and have to pickle to de-scale my wire, yet more processes and waste.
