Contorted Catlin Elm in the pot

[Smoke]

"When bonsai follow the rules too much they become boring"


I know, I have the most boring collection you could see.

Just the fact that this tree is bring talked about this much prooves that it "is not" boring. No matter how you slice that, its a good thing. If this tree was perfect, no one would say anything.

I don't think anyone would complain to have this much discussion on any tree they post, good or bad.

Come up with a scroll and a stand and accent and bring this to this years Kazari in Hanford. I think this tree under the right conditions has the makings of a possible dark horse. This is a standout and has more art than people can see.

 

[bonsaibp]

I'll be blunt. Take a college level art or design class and then you will be able to make your own list. Is this a new idea that "bonsai rules" are actually just basic rules of artistic design that are put into bonsai laymans terms? Do you actually think that a bonsai dictator made this stuff up and it must be followed or you will be banished from bonsai land. Is it a coincidence that fine artists can come into bonsai and design amazing trees within no time at all?

Just so I understand what you're thinking could you tell me what rules this breaks?

 

[bonsaibp]

"When bonsai follow the rules too much they become boring"


I know, I have the most boring collection you could see.

Just the fact that this tree is bring talked about this much prooves that it "is not" boring. No matter how you slice that, its a good thing. If this tree was perfect, no one would say anything.

I don't think anyone would complain to have this much discussion on any tree they post, good or bad.

Come up with a scroll and a stand and accent and bring this to this years Kazari in Hanford. I think this tree under the right conditions has the makings of a possible dark horse. This is a standout and has more art than people can see.

I just may do that Al, thanks for the idea. When is it?

 

[nathanbs]

Just so I understand what you're thinking could you tell me what rules this breaks?

First of all do we agree that the pot is supposed to "frame" the tree and not compete with it as this can change the focal point and overall balance of the composition?

 

[Smoke]

April 27 and 28, 2013

 

[Smoke]

First one must study the roots of classical bonsai and appreciate them for what they are.

There are many "rules" broken in the Mona Lisa also, but that does not detract from the overall art that it is.

It is appreciated for what it is not what it could be. It is no different in bonsai.

I appreciate it for what it is. A classical bonsai.


Rules? What rules? Who said you have to plant a cascade in a cascade pot?

 

[Smoke]

Some other classical Japanese bonsai.

I think that second tree fits extremely well with this group of nine trees.

 

[Smoke]

I just may do that Al, thanks for the idea. When is it?

I will make sure you get an entry form.

http://www.ccjac.org/exhibitionupcoming.html

http://www.ccjac.org/bonsai/kazari.html

 

[milehigh_7]

True art is always "evocative". Maybe love, perhaps hate sometimes anger but art is always "evocative". When an image can do this, it is successful as art. That is why you can't simply put form and style rules in the hopper, turn the crank and out comes an artistic widget. As Smoke said the length of this thread proves it succeeds as art.

 

[Dan W.]

Some other classical Japanese bonsai.

I think that second tree fits extremely well with this group of nine trees.

Hey Al, tree #2 in this post is a nice one!

Thanks for sharing these. I notice that several of them have low hanging branches, that is one reason I believe the taller pot works with the Bob's tree. Do you think this has anything to do with these pot choices?

 

[Dan W.]

Here is a Dan Robinson hornbeam with some similar traits that Eric wired and posted a while back. -- Another low hanging branch...lol

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?7354-Hornbeam-gone-wild
.....

 

[daygan]

Well, as with all art forms, I think there's always room for (and necessity for?) art critique. Personally, I also prefer a shallower pot for this tree (the contorted catlin). I can't articulate exactly why, but it is my personal feeling. Regardless, its a cool tree that I'm sure looks even more beautiful in leaf!

Bob, what are your plans for this tree? Are you going to restyle it at all, or leave it mostly the way it is now?

edit: woops, sorry - I hit the post button too fast - I see you answered my question earlier:

I won't be doing anything major, just some pruning and maybe using twine as guy wires to move a few branches.

 

[nathanbs]

I was going to mention earlier that some taller almost bunjin trees can pull off a deeper/narrow pot as well. Half of the trees you(smoke) posted are almost a bunjin. I venture to guess that these trees in deeper pots are earlier Japanese, as it was a lot more popular 10+ years ago as it was both the trend and for horticultural reasons. Pots have historically gotten shallower and shallower. I wager that every tree you pictured could be photo shopped into a more appropriate pot and if a poll was taken the majority would choose the new pot. And as it has become the tradition with this thread I either begin or end my posts with a clarifying comment, I never said Bobs tree was not art.

 

[bonsaibp]

First of all do we agree that the pot is supposed to "frame" the tree and not compete with it as this can change the focal point and overall balance of the composition?

I can agree with that. I think this does frame the tree, not compete with it and will even more when it's leafed out.
I know you think otherwise but that, like my thoughts are just an opinion. Where and what is the rule that says this composition is wrong?
It's all very subjective including what the rules are and how they are interpreted.
Would the tree look better in a different pot? Maybe. Better or not it would be different and not what my vision was for this tree. From the moment I first saw this tree I envisioned it in this type of pot. Not necessarily this exact pot , but one of this size and shape. Someone actually did a virtual of the tree with this pot only maybe 3 inches deep- for me the tree looked way to powerful for the shallow pot. It felt somewhat unstable to me and made me a little uncomfortable.
In case your interested I put up a poll on a different site just asking if the tree and pot combo worked. Right now 12 people think it doesn't work and 8 think it does. So you're not alone.
In any case I'm glad that it can stir up this much passion.

 

[nathanbs]

At this point it has grown on me some and I definitely don't want to change your vision. I think its turned into an interesting discussion. But to answer your question I want to write a portion out of David de Groots book basic bonsai design as I myself am no expert nor am I a trained artist. I took one college level art class and that was that(I wanted to design cars). "Every bonsai contains four visual elements- line, form, texture, and color-- by which we design it's style and character. Those same elements similarly define a container, the line being either horizontal or vertical; the form being its overall shape(round,square,oval,etc);the texture being the presence or absence of lines, panels or other surface decoration, the treatment of the foot and grain of the finish; the color being the color of the fired clay or glaze.
Artistic principles of proportion, balance and unity are observed by the potter who designs a bonsai container to be visually pleasing. The same principles are utilized by the bonsai artist in creating a believable and satisfying bonsai, and they should be carefully observed as we match the container to the tree to create the most effective and beautiful composition."
He goes into further detail how the longer horizontal line of a wider pot helps balance the vertical line of the tree. And by comparison cascade trees are planted in deeper containers that draw our eye vertically. And that the depth of the cascade pot provides enough visual mass for good balance. "the line and form of the tree taken together, will indicate the proper shape for its container".
I know this doesn't directly answer your question about the "rules" but it definitely gives you the underlying principles. I highly recommend this book because I feel it's the best I've read that translates artistic principles of design into bonsai terms for us to understand

 

[bonsaibp]

At this point it has grown on me some and I definitely don't want to change your vision. I think its turned into an interesting discussion. But to answer your question I want to write a portion out of David de Groots book basic bonsai design as I myself am no expert nor am I a trained artist. I took one college level art class and that was that(I wanted to design cars). "Every bonsai contains four visual elements- line, form, texture, and color-- by which we design it's style and character. Those same elements similarly define a container, the line being either horizontal or vertical; the form being its overall shape(round,square,oval,etc);the texture being the presence or absence of lines, panels or other surface decoration, the treatment of the foot and grain of the finish; the color being the color of the fired clay or glaze.
Artistic principles of proportion, balance and unity are observed by the potter who designs a bonsai container to be visually pleasing. The same principles are utilized by the bonsai artist in creating a believable and satisfying bonsai, and they should be carefully observed as we match the container to the tree to create the most effective and beautiful composition."
He goes into further detail how the longer horizontal line of a wider pot helps balance the vertical line of the tree. And by comparison cascade trees are planted in deeper containers that draw our eye vertically. And that the depth of the cascade pot provides enough visual mass for good balance. "the line and form of the tree taken together, will indicate the proper shape for its container".
I know this doesn't directly answer your question about the "rules" but it definitely gives you the underlying principles. I highly recommend this book because I feel it's the best I've read that translates artistic principles of design into bonsai terms for us to understand

Thanks for the book recommendation- I'll get it and read it. I respect David's work and knowledge.
I understand the underlaying principles but my point is that they are open to interpertation and that interpertaion can vary greatly. And who's to say one is right or wrong? Not I that's for sure.
You should stop by some day and check it out in person- it may grow on you a little more . It does look different in real life, my photographic skills leave quite a bit to be desired.

 

[nathanbs]

I apologize if I came off as telling you that you were wrong. I was just saying what I thought would be better, but wasn't suggesting you yank it out and do it. More for discussion purposes only.

 

[bonsaibp]

Not a problem. You are always welcome to stop by and see it up close and personal if you'd like.

 

[nathanbs]

I definitely will when I have time as I haven't by since I bought that huge microcarpa

 

[bonsaibp]

I definitely will when I have time as I haven't by since I bought that huge microcarpa

Cool.......