Contorted Catlin Elm in the pot

[Dav4]

All I know is that I would kill to own either the pot or the tree. They're wonderful on their own, and have great histories, individually. Having the two matched together, I think, might represent the pinnacle of achievement for most of us who love bonsai and practice it here in the US.

 

[nathanbs]

Having the two matched together, I think, might represent the pinnacle of achievement for most of us who love bonsai and practice it here in the US.

Ok I don't think I can say this without offending someone or someones but I feel compelled to say it. I think in a nutshell what you just said above is what holds bonsai in the US back. This tree is special because Catlin started it himself(in this case it's a wonderful tree), this pot is special because John Naka gave it to me(in this case a wonderful pot), so let's just put them together because special+special=extra special or wonderful+wonderful= extra wonderful. Maybe the extra special applies but otherwise aesthetically too many rules are being broken but in the US that's ok because of the history. There are so many trees here in the US, specifically southern California that are very behind the times because 1) Naka styled it and like having the Pope bless your handkerchief you never want to wash it ever or 2)Naka taught me these techniques himself so therefore they are not only correct but superior to anything else someone has to teach me. Ok I'm done sorry for my rant and I hope nobody hates me now

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Ok I don't think I can say this without offending someone or someones but I feel compelled to say it. I think in a nutshell what you just said above is what holds bonsai in the US back. This tree is special because Catlin started it himself(in this case it's a wonderful tree), this pot is special because John Naka gave it to me(in this case a wonderful pot), so let's just put them together because special+special=extra special or wonderful+wonderful= extra wonderful. Maybe the extra special applies but otherwise aesthetically too many rules are being broken but in the US that's ok because of the history. There are so many trees here in the US, specifically southern California that are very behind the times because 1) Naka styled it and like having the Pope bless your handkerchief you never want to wash it ever or 2)Naka taught me these techniques himself so therefore they are not only correct but superior to anything else someone has to teach me. Ok I'm done sorry for my rant and I hope nobody hates me now

Funny, reading the thread, it seems you're the only one framing up the argument of provenance...for the purpose of knocking it down.

Your commentary may be right, pertaining to SoCal bonsai, but since I've never been there, that has no bearing on how I appreciate this bonsai. I simply like the composition. It has a very Chinese feel to it; craggy tree not exactly following any formal Japanese "rules", heavy trunk, in a deep, flashy glazed pot. For me, any provenance is the icing.

Maybe that's just me...I don't know why Bob put it together his way.

 

[Dav4]

Ok I don't think I can say this without offending someone or someones but I feel compelled to say it. I think in a nutshell what you just said above is what holds bonsai in the US back. This tree is special because Catlin started it himself(in this case it's a wonderful tree), this pot is special because John Naka gave it to me(in this case a wonderful pot), so let's just put them together because special+special=extra special or wonderful+wonderful= extra wonderful. Maybe the extra special applies but otherwise aesthetically too many rules are being broken but in the US that's ok because of the history. There are so many trees here in the US, specifically southern California that are very behind the times because 1) Naka styled it and like having the Pope bless your handkerchief you never want to wash it ever or 2)Naka taught me these techniques himself so therefore they are not only correct but superior to anything else someone has to teach me. Ok I'm done sorry for my rant and I hope nobody hates me now

Wow, you really read alot more into my comment then you should have. It was meant as a compliment to a really cool pairing of special tree and special pot, each holding a special place in the history of bonsai in the US. To say the sentiment behind my comment is holding bonsai in the US back is, honestly, just plain silly. Sure, there are lots and lots of more impressive tree and pot combos out there...so what. It doesn't mean that we can't appreciate what this pairing represents, both visually (great older tree matched with a great, old pot), and historically.

 

[Dav4]

I have to wholeheartedly agree with Si, I love both individually but not together. It's a cascade pot after all. And a bright glaze on a non flowering,fruiting, color changing tree???? Breaks a lot of basic design rules which equals negative emotions/vibes for the viewer. Clearly not everyone dislikes it. More seem to like it than dislike it. But as long as you like it that's what counts

Take a look at some of Dan Robinson's work...it has a very similar feel to this composition. Sure, his work (and this one) break many rules from a traditional Japanese point of view...but does it work? Like Brian said, the composition has a Chinese quality to it. I like it in the same way I like Dan's trees....different then the norm but still visually pleasing.

 

[gergwebber]

Wow, you really read alot more into my comment then you should have. It was meant as a compliment to a really cool pairing of special tree and special pot, each holding a special place in the history of bonsai in the US. To say the sentiment behind my comment is holding bonsai in the US back is, honestly, just plain silly...

Some people just think sentimentality is rubbish period. I cherish knowing some of my tree's parents, and knowing that I am growing a piece of my past home/life/childhood what ever. We, (most anyway) live in a nation where we are very lucky to live on the same land as our grandparents. If my bonsai can fill that void, great! Not all of my trees fit that mold, but a few do and I like them even if their structure and my reasoning is flawed. I guess we could separate Goshin and get some better trees right?

I wish I had a Naka pot.

 

[nathanbs]

My biggest point of contention is that it doesn't work in my opinion. And I never said it broke Japanese rules, I said it broke design rules. Rules of proportion, of color pairing, of interaction and distraction. The tree is supposed to be the center of your attention, not the pot.
I originally bit my tongue on this pairing because I liked both individually, and it seemed as though Bob was determined to do it, who am I to say he shouldn't? But now that there has been a little bit of a discussion going on about it I decided to share my opinion. I do stand my ground on not liking them together and just because a pot and a tree are nice independently does not mean we put them together without respecting rules of artistic design. And provenance should only add a nice touch to something that is already nice but does not give license to completely abandon the rules.

 

[rockm]

I agree with Nathan. I don't like the pairing. It splits the attention between the pot and the old powerful trunk, with the trunk being the visual loser.

The pot does nothing to visually set off the notable trunk on this tree. It makes it look mostly like a houseplant and not a tree (that is my main gripe with Chinese pots in this style and they do to this trunk what they do to Dan Robinson's trees--make them look a bit less than they should).

I think a less deep, oval with a rougher matte glaze in a more subdued color that breaks to brighter color would work with this.

 

[Dan W.]

Whose design rules? And why do you say he "completely abandoned" these design rules? This is a truly magestic and ancient looking tree that's on its way to being even better. Honestly the pot is a nice compliment in my eye...It gives an erie contrast to the contorted dark branches. I agree that according to many of our conceived rules the pot is a cascade pot, but in the case above it doesn't bother me at all. I rather like a bit of a twist here and there.

Sure it doesn't follow all of the bonsai design rules... Find me one ancient and gnarly tree in nature that follows our design rules to a T...-- Also, many of my favorite bonsai seen in books and on the web have all had design "flaws."

All I'm trying to say is... there are design rules, but one great thing about art is that it is freedom. Especially here in America, freedom of expression in art is one of our higest values.
No one says you have to like it. We all have different tastes (another great thing about freedom), some of us like this composition, some don't, some love it and some cant stand it... The composition has effectively touched and moved many of us... just in different directions..lol

If we all thought alike and if trees all grew according to the same design rules... all trees would look the same, all bonsai would look the same and the world would be a very boring place. .. . Which is why I'm greatful for your viewpoint; I'm just pointing out that there are more points of view, and all but one don't have to be wrong.

 

[nathanbs]

I did not say one thing negative about the tree or the design of the tree nor did I say anything negative about the pot or the design of the pot. I said I did not like the two together. I love both and wished I owned both. I would just take the tree out of that pot the first chance i got. The "rules" I reference are basic rules of artistic design, these apply to anything and everything whether its landscape design, architectural design, interior decorating, fashion, automotive design, all forms of art including bonsai. These are rules about shape, color, proportion, symmetry, texture, the list goes on and on. There are things that just look good and are soothing and there are things that look bad and make us feel uncomfortable. In this case it clearly makes everyone feel good and I think that's because the pot is very nice in shape and color and the tree is very nice in shape and color. But as rock pointed out the pot takes away from the tree, it overpowers it in some ways. You think you like that tree now, just wait until you put it in a less dominating pot, maybe one that actually brings out the qualities in the tree. Same goes for the pot, imagine a beautiful flowering, gnarly bunjin ume in that pot.

 

[Dan W.]

I see what you're saying, but I think this tree is actually too powerful for what we would generally consider a good pot for this type/style of tree. I feel that this tree needs a powerful pot for the composition. Maybe a very wide and shallow pot would work well... but I think I would still like the same color (not that others wouldn't work). I mostly agree with you on principle but at the same time I personally don't feel that this pot takes away from the tree. -- I could very well be wrong... and would love to see some virtuals if anyone has the bug to create a few...

 

[rockm]

"but I think this tree is actually too powerful for what we would generally consider a good pot for this type/style of tree"

I don't think that's true at all. A simple deepish (not anywhere near as deep as the current pot though) rectangle with rounded corners, or a chunky oval would pair up nicely with it.

Look at W.P.'s beech here:
http://walter-pall.de/beecheuropean_beech_nr__6.jpg.dir/index.html

or this zelkova:
http://walter-pall.de/b02gallery_non_conifers.jpg.dir/index.html

 

[gergwebber]

lets just call it an extraordinary penjing, that seems counter the style issues in most cases

he did this on purpose!

 

[mat]

Sorry if I'm interrupting what I think is a good discussion regarding the way it looks with its pot - But I just need to say that it really is a fantastic tree. Thanks for sharing Bob.

 

[nathanbs]

lets just call it an extraordinary penjing, that seems counter the style issues in most cases

he did this on purpose!

Bending or breaking rules of artistic design are not taboo, if done successfully they usually are the basis for trends or fads. I may be wrong but I don't think this is a current style of penjing. I think it was a former trend. Eventually all fads and trends go away as the majority of those viewing them do not like them and those who do like them come to their senses

 

[Dan W.]

rockm, it may just be my inexperience, but I'm having trouble visualizing this tree in a pot like that. I think it would have to be a very special and powerful pot to support the canopy on this tree. These are just my opinions, thank you guys for the great discussion!

 

[rockm]

"may just be my inexperience, but I'm having trouble visualizing this tree in a pot like that. I think it would have to be a very special and powerful pot to support the canopy on this tree."

Not really. The canopy on this tree is great, but not one in a million.

The W.P. beech has a similar dense ramification and leaves (although not as tiny as the leaves on this elm) that creates a similar heavy canopy. The pot on the beech serves as an underline to the canopy, not a mirror.

There are many other examples on W.P.'s pages and elsewhere that have similar dense tops like this elm.

I think you're just in love with the pot . I can understand that, but this pot doesn't support the tree as much as it tries to overwhelm it. You're looking for support, not for equal attention in a pot. This pot (to me anyway) isn't a supporting player, but an actor unto itself.

A glazed drum could also work--although the tree here is monumental in size, the idea is the same:
http://walter-pall.de/maplesfield_maple_nr__6.jpg.dir/index.html

 

[bonsaibp]

Wow didn't think this was gonna stir up a hornets nest. To all those that like the tree and pot- Thank You! Wait until you all see it leafed out!
To those that don't like it- that's ok we all have our opinions.
I think it's a little strange that there seems to be the need to make each other change their minds rather then just agree to disagree. Whether one likes a certain bonsai or pot or painting etc. or not is so subjective and individualized that I can't see how one can argue with anothers opinion.
About this tree being special because of where it came from or who the pot came from thats bunk. The tree is special because it's special...period. The pot is special because it's an unusual color and has a nice patina to it. For me the combination is special as well but has nothing to do with where the cutting or pot came from.Where it and the pot came from is an interesting aside, nothing more. It doesn't add anything aesthetically.
The bottom line is that it's my tree and I like it this way. If others like it great, if not that's fine too.
There is one thing though- I'd like to see this list and to know who came up with the rules.

The "rules" I reference are basic rules of artistic design, these apply to anything and everything whether its landscape design, architectural design, interior decorating, fashion, automotive design, all forms of art including bonsai. These are rules about shape, color, proportion, symmetry, texture, the list goes on and on.

 

[Dan W.]

I'm glad you like the tree as it is Bob... so do I

rockm, I agree the drum might work too. I think there are other factors as to why I'm not sold on a rectangle... the beech does have a dense canopy, but the overall canopy/tree ratio is smaller-- also the canopy is higher up the trunk, leaving sufficient negative space. This catlin on the other hand has a very large canopy compared to the trunk (not bad at all-- I'm just pointing out the differences). If put in a similar pot I don't think it would have the same effect. This negative space is something that I think the round pot (or possibly a drum pot) is hleping with, both by its shape and even height. To my eyes, the power in this tree is attributed as much to the thick gnarly branches as to the trunk...which (again IMHO ) doesn't appear to be stolen by the pot.

I greatly appreciate the discussion and our differing points of view. As Bob pointed out... we can agree to disagree.

(I also reserve the right to grow and change in my artistic ability and appreciation...and opinions)

Happy New Year!

 

[nathanbs]

Wow didn't think this was gonna stir up a hornets nest. To all those that like the tree and pot- Thank You! Wait until you all see it leafed out!
To those that don't like it- that's ok we all have our opinions.
I think it's a little strange that there seems to be the need to make each other change their minds rather then just agree to disagree. Whether one likes a certain bonsai or pot or painting etc. or not is so subjective and individualized that I can't see how one can argue with anothers opinion.
About this tree being special because of where it came from or who the pot came from thats bunk. The tree is special because it's special...period. The pot is special because it's an unusual color and has a nice patina to it. For me the combination is special as well but has nothing to do with where the cutting or pot came from.Where it and the pot came from is an interesting aside, nothing more. It doesn't add anything aesthetically.
The bottom line is that it's my tree and I like it this way. If others like it great, if not that's fine too.
There is one thing though- I'd like to see this list and to know who came up with the rules.

The "rules" I reference are basic rules of artistic design, these apply to anything and everything whether its landscape design, architectural design, interior decorating, fashion, automotive design, all forms of art including bonsai. These are rules about shape, color, proportion, symmetry, texture, the list goes on and on.

I'll be blunt. Take a college level art or design class and then you will be able to make your own list. Is this a new idea that "bonsai rules" are actually just basic rules of artistic design that are put into bonsai laymans terms? Do you actually think that a bonsai dictator made this stuff up and it must be followed or you will be banished from bonsai land. Is it a coincidence that fine artists can come into bonsai and design amazing trees within no time at all?