Consistently killing conifers. Confused.

[ManSkirtBrew]

I think the best advice I can give is to get someone local and experienced - from a local club or something

Totally agree, but I haven't found one within an hour's drive of me, which is why I've been pestering you fine folks so much.

Are you sifting your soil right before use?

Sure am, but it's a good reminder.

 

[CWTurner]

Totally agree, but I haven't found one within an hour's drive of me, which is why I've been pestering you fine folks so much.

Slightly off topic, but did you see THIS Craigslist posting?
Maybe go see his trees, buy a few, and get some advice?
I have no idea if this fellow knows what he is doing, I just happened across this today and since you're in NJ, I thought I'd mention it.
And in case you don't know, @Walter Pall is seriously world renowned! You are lucky to have received an answer from him.
CW

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

Slightly off topic, but did you see THIS Craigslist posting?

I didn't, but thank you! It's just over an hour drive for me. I'll reach out and see what their story is.

And in case you don't know, @Walter Pall is seriously world renowned! You are lucky to have received an answer from him.

I didn't know that either! Now I feel special

 

[Walter Pall]

This is my feeling too. And also still learning how to care for confiers differently from my other plants and trees.


Can you tell me what feeding is, then?


This is the first time I've heard this, but then I'm also conflating feeding and fertilizing, apparently.

Jeez I'm learning a lot in this thread!

The tree feeds itself. It takes water with some dissolved minerals plus carbondioxyde from the air and with photosynthesis produces carbon hydrates. This is the ONLY source of energy that drives a tree. It also produces oxygen as side effect.There is no feeding with fertilizing - only helping the tree to feed itself.

 

[penumbra]

Can you tell me what feeding is, then?

Actually that comment about feeding makes perfect sense. We don't actually feed plants, they feed themselves .... and us. We do try to provide the basic minerals and elements for them to make food. And we do this mostly because we have removed them from sources that would otherwise be available to them.
I do think over "feeding" is a serious problem.

Wow Walter, you beat me to it. I concur.

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

Thanks @Walter Pall and @penumbra. I understand the tree feeds itself, but I thought the fertilizer is what provides the nutrients the tree needs to do that, since our soil is mostly inorganic. Am I misunderstanding that part?

So when I read advice on junipers to "feed heavily and let it grow," what is that suggesting we do if not fertilizing?

Some threads with examples:

Repotting Juniper

Needle Juniper Update

Juniper practice

Cascade juniper advice

Fertilizer initiation in spring

I hope my questions come across as wanting to understand and not to be argumentative. I thought I was doing all the right things based on my research, but I'm learning a lot of new things here, so thanks again.

 

[Walter Pall]

Thanks @Walter Pall and @penumbra. I understand the tree feeds itself, but I thought the fertilizer is what provides the nutrients the tree needs to do that, since our soil is mostly inorganic. Am I misunderstanding that part?

So when I read advice on junipers to "feed heavily and let it grow," what is that suggesting we do if not fertilizing?

Some threads with examples:

Repotting Juniper

Needle Juniper Update

Juniper practice

Cascade juniper advice

Fertilizer initiation in spring

I hope my questions come across as wanting to understand and not to be argumentative. I thought I was doing all the right things based on my research, but I'm learning a lot of new things here, so thanks again.

When it says "feed" heavily.it shoud be "fertilize havily. But then it is wrong advice. Uaually you do NOT fertilize heavily - only little.. Fertilizer is dissolved in water and this is somehting the tree needs to do photosynthesis and feed itlsef.
You for yourself need some salt in water and other minerals to stay helathy. But you are not fed with water!. If you put in more salt and minerals it mght be good. If you put in even more it will start to be toxic. If you add a pund of salt you are dead. Ths is what happens with over fertlizng a tree.

 

[rorror]

Also don't firtilize when you know there is a heatwave comming. As firtilizer salts will slowdown the tree from taking up water. And getting burned / crispy tips on needles / leaves.

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

If you add a pund of salt you are dead. Ths is what happens with over fertlizng a tree.

Good analogy, thank you.

So that leaves me with the question: if I'm using a liquid fertilizer like Neptune's Harvest or DynaGro 7-9-5, when and how often should I be applying it? So far in this thread I've learned don't fertilize before new growth has hardened off, don't fertilize weekly, don't fertilize before a heatwave, don't fertilize right after repotting. So only fertilize summer through fall, unless I decide to repot in high summer as @sorce suggested, then not at all?

 

[penumbra]

if I'm using a liquid fertilizer like Neptune's Harvest or DynaGro 7-9-5, when and how often should I be applying it

It really depends on the type of plant but if it is conifers you are concerned with, I use Neptune's Harvest about twice a month. I use it as a foliar spray but I realize the some is taken up by the plants as runoff.

 

[ManSkirtBrew]

if it is conifers you are concerned with, I use Neptune's Harvest about twice a month

Thanks, that's helpful. I think maybe getting an established coniferous bonsai or two and keeping them alive is going to be more instructional for me than trying to work with nursery stock at this point.

 

[penumbra]

Thanks, that's helpful. I think maybe getting an established coniferous bonsai or two and keeping them alive is going to be more instructional for me than trying to work with nursery stock at this point.

I think that sounds reasonable.

 

[Vali]

When it says "feed" heavily.it shoud be "fertilize havily. But then it is wrong advice. Uaually you do NOT fertilize heavily - only little..

This seems to be contrary to your feeding, substrate and watering article. Does this mean that you have changed your fertilizing strategy? I know it is an old article, but I still apply most of those methods

 

[Walter Pall]

This seems to be contrary to your feeding, substrate and watering article. Does this mean that you have changed your fertilizing strategy? I know it is an old article, but I still apply most of those methods

It means that I do not advocate agressive fertilizing anymore. Less is more. It depends on the species and circumsatances too much. It is not good to generalize.

 

[Vali]

It means that I do not advocate agressive fertilizing anymore. Less is more. It depends on the species and circumsatances too much. It is not good to generalize.

Thank you. I'm glad I found this thread

 

[Paradox]

Good analogy, thank you.

So that leaves me with the question: if I'm using a liquid fertilizer like Neptune's Harvest or DynaGro 7-9-5, when and how often should I be applying it? So far in this thread I've learned don't fertilize before new growth has hardened off, don't fertilize weekly, don't fertilize before a heatwave, don't fertilize right after repotting. So only fertilize summer through fall...

In addition to what @penumbra stated, it depends on what species of tree we are talking about and at what stage of development the tree is at.

If you fertilize a highly developed tree too early in the season, it responds with aggressive growth and you get long internodes and large leaves which is what we don't want on a highly developed tree. Now a seeding that we want to get a lot of growth on, we will fertilize in early spring.

Even among pine species, we treat Japanese black pine differently than Scots pine and Japanese white pine because of differences in their growth characteristics

 

[Japonicus]

I don't fertilize newly repotted juniper for a month and I put repotted trees in full Sun
that I've repotted mid April through May. A late Summer repot I would be cautious to provide
time for roots to grow before exposing the pot to direct Sun, but heat on the pot in Spring is good.
Once recovered and growing, I feed my conifers weekly but do not feed my WP in Spring.

Having read this thread through pretty much I really think after care has been more an issue than
anything else. After nearly losing my cascade procumbens in 2018 due to repotting it as the buds were moving
in March, after a 2017 thinning, I have postponed to mid April through May. It got too cold after repotting
and became weak, to the point I lost an entire year, and hope to finally thin it again this year.
I find conifers quite easy to repot, but, it certainly brings out the paranoia in me when I repot anything
so I do allow it to get rather bushy the year prior to repotting, and all the extra foliage does indeed
help speed recovery.

Wind, now there's an issue I provide shelter for on anything I've recently repotted.
It requires a close ear to the forecast though, and knowing that when I go to bed
or when I leave for work, that my tree is not going to wiggle about in its new home.
So securing the root ball to the pot good is another wind related issue.
I'm surprised sorce hasn't mentioned the chop sticking of new soil into the roots as being injurious.
It's possible.

Thanks for the quick reply!

1. During the summer I water daily, unless we've had rain that day. I haven't checked it in a few days, since we've had consistent rain every single day for a week straight. Yesterday was the first dry day, so today I watered.
2. I tried to disturb the root ball as little as possible, only teasing out the roots and knocking out enough old soil to get it comfortably in its new pot. Otherwise, as normal. Wire mesh over drainage holes, mound up soil, put tree in, tuck roots down with chopstick, backfill and poke with chopstick until all the voids are filled.

As Frank mentioned watering 2x/day may be your new norm, more in high temps above upper 80's maybe.
Drying out and also as mentioned, dog piss are major killers.
2. I seriously don't think it's how you handle the roots at repotting, unless you aggressively kill the roots with chopstick.
I cut bottom 60% off nursery stock and rake the roots out somewhat, but going for the core mostly.
Please see post #11 and 12 here

Last juniper purchases this year I "promise" (fingers crossed)

Sarcastically, my wife said I needed another juniper, so I got 3 :p All 3 are in 3g cans. Left to right Sargent, Robusta (tall like a Hollywood juniper) and Gold Lace. There's a nursery not far from here in the Green Bottom Lesage area that sells wholesale from Columbus, Cincinnati -...

www.bonsainut.com

Post #11 also in this juniper thread

My 20-$25 Shimpaku from NEB 2008

Time for a dedicated thread for the 1st Shimpaku I owned. Oct. 8th 2008 I carried this one around with me in fear it would get snatched up if I set it down. Pretty good sized area NEB is. Tag read-shimpaku 20 or $25 and the fella at the register questioned the cost, and I said I had not...

www.bonsainut.com

and post #12 here

Hinoki Golden variety cut and style under way

I got this from another local nursery since closed. They had several established cuttings in 2" pots. Not the size of my hand when I got it, I just love the change up in colour amongst the other trees on my porch. Front Back Right Left Wrong pot, and roots are filling this one up, yay...

www.bonsainut.com

2 of these examples I did in May, the shimpaku early April last year.
I want to see you turn your conifer situation around. It's not your BJ soil.
Maybe how you water it, along with how it gets worked in, but remember, it's going to take
several waterings for the Douglas fir bark in that mix to absorb and begin its activity.
Try the dunk method up to but not over the rim of the pot if you have a reservoir sized to do that
when you 1st repot for a few waterings. Still that's not a deal breaker by any means, but will accelerate absorption
of the bark in your mix. Will evenly hydrate the root ball and new soil mix, well while new roots begin
to populate the new soil. Once growing don't be afraid to fertilise how you have been.

 

[Big Sky Little Trees]

I am truly a noob to bonsai, yet we have keep expansive gardens and many many trees.

We live in the arid part of Montana. We had a Spruce that we parked on a bit of a hill, and it did great as long we kept up on tending, but as soon as we missed the one or two days, bam not shortly after the damage could be seen.

The junipers all varied based on location and circumstances. Some of our junipers would be pristine and lush at all times of the year, and in other locations, even very near, some would always be bone dry and you could smell the heat in them.

It is always a dance, and sometimes no matter the effort, it is best to just reassess and shift gears.

Maybe as a long term experiment, if space and such allow, try a range of plans on unique but similar material. Over time you may find the sweet spot for this and that.

You might try younger material as well. You may find it easier to respond to a tree you have know from a younger age and this allows the tree to grow up in your environment. More time, but better overall understanding of the unique specimen.

These are the general techniques we used for all trees. While there will be failures, once you find the necessary particulars you can then apply adapted concepts to other species as well.

 

[NamesakE]

I'd say roots because of too much water because of bad soil. Because of the dead foliage it cannot be seen what kind of substrate you use. I suggest using inorganic medium that prevents from overwatering with appropriate particle size. I use pure Zeolite for conifers but that's just my approach. Regarding repotting and bare-rooting. Usually trees coming from nurseries have enough roots and foliage (because they have been fertilized quite much) to survive harsher replanting. So I tend to remove as much as possible of the original soil to replace with inorganic substrate.

I've been looking at using Zeolite in a mix I'm developing myself. Glad to know I'm on the right track! I've never bought it before. Do they have larger granular sizes like ¼ to use in a bonsai- style mix? Do you have a brand you like? I appreciate any info.

 

[Mikecheck123]

Just something I want to throw in there.. There aren't any dogs around are there?
Mans best friend can whizz a tree to death.

So they maybe got pissed off?