Collecting. With or without permission?

[CptnGlyn]

At this point it is probably too late, but depending on the scale of trees you want to extract, they might actually welcome it.
One of my colleagues has been dealing with a charity that finds donor sites for trees, (usually local schools, parks and things) and transplants them out of development sites in which they are scheduled to be removed. As I understand it this then counts towards mitigation planting in favour of the developer.
You would need to speak to either the developers themselves or find the site manager. They would likely welcome the brownie points that they might get by reporting to the planning department that ‘unwanted trees were donated to local residents’.

 

[Will i am bonsai]

At this point it is probably too late, but depending on the scale of trees you want to extract, they might actually welcome it.
One of my colleagues has been dealing with a charity that finds donor sites for trees, (usually local schools, parks and things) and transplants them out of development sites in which they are scheduled to be removed. As I understand it this then counts towards mitigation planting in favour of the developer.
You would need to speak to either the developers themselves or find the site manager. They would likely welcome the brownie points that they might get by reporting to the planning department that ‘unwanted trees were donated to local residents’.

This is exactly what I needed to hear regarding my personal situation, now that I know what to say with a decent chance of a happy outcome I’d be happy to ask someone

 

[rockm]

This is exactly what I needed to hear regarding my personal situation, now that I know what to say with a decent chance of a happy outcome I’d be happy to ask someone

 

[HorseloverFat]

Asking someone is asking permission...

DNR encourages you to dig invasives on public land here... They like to be notified, though...

Most property Manager's are willing to part with trees... You just have to interface with them.

Most farmer's don't give a crap, either way... If you ask permission... It's not trespassing.

I feel like we just went full circle on a basic question of decency.

 

[BobbyLane]

Im always late or miss out. There was some land being cleared only a year ago around the corner from me, I did ask one of the guys who was excavating if I could look around the site to see if I could salvage anything, showed him some pics of bonsai and what I do. He went and explained that to his boss on site and they were all cool for me to have a look around. most trees were completely ripped to shreds, there was a few straight taxus poles, nothing much worth taking. there were some young oaks but just not enough rootage. If i had got in earlier with a spade i might have had some bits.
Another time I spotted a hawthorn in a church yard i wanted, i knew they were going to start some clearance work by the machinery being put out, by the time I went to ask they had already cut the hawthorn out. You gotta be quick!

 

[19Mateo83]

Lol if I asked the builders over here they would probably just look at me and laugh at the fact that I’m trying to dig up a tree in the first place

I have asked construction workers clearing land and they actually popped a tree out for me with the excavator. You never know until you ask. That certainly was the easiest tree I’ve ever collected

 

[Joe Dupre']

I collect a lot of trees from the roadsides. In Louisiana, technically the landowner adjacent to the road still owns the land but the state has an easement to do what it needs to do on that land. I take trees from back country roads with no houses or businesses in the surrounding area. I've lived here for 68 years and know that certain land is owned (and probably forgotten about) by families in other states. I'm not saying that makes it right. I feel that is no better or worse than if I stop and pick up a fishing rod or ice chest that has fallen from someone's boat and has been there a while. Would I suggest you do it? No. Each man has to make that call on his own.

 

[rockm]

The reason I get pissy about collecting without a permit and the "each man's conscience" approach is that this ISN'T like picking up a fishing rod/ice chest etc. It requires effort, sometimes a lot of effort to collect a tree. It significantly alters the landscape. It removes a resource and the biggest reason IT REFLECTS ON OTHERS WHO ARE DOING THE SAME THING.

The "each man" thing allows for a lot of dumbassery to go around. What I consider ethical, some other idiot doesn't give a shit about and does it anyway. That can piss off whoever owns the land resource and decides bonsai collectors are all assholes. It has happened repeatedly. Done wrong or without conscience or ethics, it harms us ALL...

I'd rather start with at least TRYING to get folks to understand what they're doing and its possible affects on others, including fellow collectors and of course landowners.

Preachy, yeah, i know, but stupid shit can happen when every man is for himself alone. Some are going to take liberties at others' expense.

 

[Joe Dupre']

The reason I get pissy about collecting without a permit and the "each man's conscience" approach is that this ISN'T like picking up a fishing rod/ice chest etc. It requires effort, sometimes a lot of effort to collect a tree. It significantly alters the landscape. It removes a resource and the biggest reason IT REFLECTS ON OTHERS WHO ARE DOING THE SAME THING.

The "each man" thing allows for a lot of dumbassery to go around. What I consider ethical, some other idiot doesn't give a shit about and does it anyway. That can piss off whoever owns the land resource and decides bonsai collectors are all assholes. It has happened repeatedly. Done wrong or without conscience or ethics, it harms us ALL...

I'd rather start with at least TRYING to get folks to understand what they're doing and its possible affects on others, including fellow collectors and of course landowners.

Preachy, yeah, i know, but stupid shit can happen when every man is for himself alone. Some are going to take liberties at others' expense.

Excellent point........BUT, the trees I take are cut back unmercifully to try to keep the roadsides clear. I'm definitely don't altering the landscape nearly as much as they do. Not much of a resource if it has to be chopped and poisoned to remove it.

 

[Neo_Rokkenjima]

Surprised to see a debate from 2009 is still ongoing... This forum is, I suppose, like a tree in the sense that its discussions are long-lived.

I'll contribute an anecdote from my own life. There were some little saplings growing in the mulch mounds that several of my neighborhood's decorative trees were planted in. Sure enough, they were quickly cut down by the landscapers, whenever they next visited. A similar situation happened at my gym: There were some beautiful specimens growing young in the mulch, which were quickly killed. I had wanted to take them, I had planned on taking them, but I got there too late. R.I.P.

In these situations, just take the damn trees when nobody is looking-- otherwise, you'll look weird. You are doing the world a favor.

Now, collecting from the great outdoors... That's another story entirely. There's a very thin line between vandalism and nature appreciation, and you certainly would not want to make the mistake of disrupting a native animal species' habitat by mistake. Thus, I advise the highest level of due caution and stewardship of the environment. I imagine there are also fines for this kind of thing, so collect at your own risk.

That said, if you know exactly what you are doing, you're being respectful of the environment, and you don't care about getting caught, then I don't see the moral problem with getting your hands dirty out in the wild. This notion that the federal government "owns" all the land in this country is preposterous. It's what they want you to believe, so that you'll keep paying your property taxes (which are unconstitutional,) but the idea is simply ridiculous when examined on its face. Unless you're talking about my house... Then, as the song goes, "This land is your land, this land is my land..." etc...

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

John Oliver did a piece on museums last week. An interesting discussion about provenance and ownership. While collecting bonsai from the wild or somebody's farm is not the same as collecting the Elgin marbles or Benin Bronzes, there are parallels in magic thinking that justifies the theft. Worth watching.

I used to own a farm. The partners would shoot over the heads of trespassers. We would call the police on a particular persistent trespasser. The police told us to shoot over his head. It was rural Michigan, they didn't care. He had been a problem for the police too. I also invited the Milwaukee bonsai society to drive the 225 miles, camp on the farm and dig trees for a weekend in April. Got rid of 50 or so Siberian elms, that were weeds in the blueberry rows. Each visitor dug 5 elms, then they could get a beech or hornbeam as reward for digging the elms, which were a nuisance in the blueberry rows. Did similar all 5 years I owned the farm. Blueberry rows were much cleaner when I left than when I started.

 

[Rivian]

Excellent point........BUT, the trees I take are cut back unmercifully to try to keep the roadsides clear. I'm definitely don't altering the landscape nearly as much as they do. Not much of a resource if it has to be chopped and poisoned to remove it.

Thats a good way to figure out it was fine to collect: Finding them shredded on the next visit!
Funny enough thats where the taper is made
They give it and they take it away

 

[TheSteve]

Kind of stunned that I stopped by after like eight or nine years away and this thread is still happening

 

[leatherback]

Kind of stunned that I stopped by after like eight or nine years away and this thread is still happening

good ideas never grow old

 

[Mikecheck123]

Kind of stunned that I stopped by after like eight or nine years away and this thread is still happening

Think of all the trees collected without permission in that time.

 

[BobbyLane]

Think of all the trees collected without permission in that time.

including all the seedlings, saplings and cuttings.

 

[August44]

I would always try to get permission on private. On Forest Service or BLM, not so much. I asked for a permit down at the BLM office a couple of months ago and they looked at me like I was crazy, never heard of that. They were going to do a little research and call me. I will just collect if they don't call. They could care less! Forest Service here is ridiculous...$20.00 per 20, 1-4' trees, permit good for 7 days from the day you get it and then you have to go back and pay and get another one. If I am collecting in a Forest 50 miles away, I have to take a drive over there during the week when they are open to get the 7day permit to collect on the weekend with a friend who works. If I want another permit, same BS all over again. You have to get the permit in person around here, but West of me they do it over the phone, $1.00 per tree, and good for the year. I have talked to these people here and other places and get nowhere. This permit thing is not a money maker and IMO , is a control thing. A lot of Forest Service folks think they are "in control" of the Forests and are very important people. They can be shown how easy it would be to save money and speed things up with this permit thing, and they get all bent and do nothing. Sometimes my initial permit lasts a long time.

 

[August44]

Also, In the same forest, one can get a permit to collect mushrooms...$100.00 FOR ONE YEAR (!) and the permit is good for the THREE surrounding forests! I have no clue what their thinking is. Things like this are decided by each individual forest and the team of the people who run them. I will send time (again!) writing the folks involved and will include the main office in Washington DC also and see what happens.

 

[jszg]

I've taken saplings from roadsides, and I feel no regret doing so. If they're mowing it down with the grass, I'm doing them a favor.
Frankly, they should be paying me for my generous and selfless magnanimity.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have no clue what their thinking is.

Conservation, probably. The more difficult it is for you to get a permit and for you to go hunting for trees or mushrooms, the more stay in the forest.

Over here it's the same for fishing licenses, driving licenses, proof of residence, and basically everything government related.
Getting in touch with forestry services in my country is - in practice - impossible, because of the bureaucratic tangled mess. There is a nation wide office and they don't actually know who their contacts are at province level, the people at province level don't know about communal level and the people in the communal level point towards the national office.
Which means I'll just go out there with a shovel and whoever fines me, will be my contact from there on forward. But I have yet to see a single person with a forestry service attire. I think in 30 years time I've seen two of them as a kid.