Collecting pine from sand/gravel soil.

[adoku]

Hello. I spotted one interesting pine last year which I prune semi hard, pruned the top off since it was very elongated, then i pruned couple branches that was growing in bad directions.. I left the pine with 2 branches. It looks good this year and i was thinking to collect, but i am worried it could be to traumatized and too chocked if i collect it, since it got pruned last year. Also because it grows in sandy/gravely area so i am concerned it might not make it because the roots are probably growing very long and i am not sure how many fine roots are closer to the trunk and if theirs enough fine roots to just dig a trench around it and lift it up. The roots are seen farely high up on the surface and they separate from the trunk into 5 maybe 6 roots that can be seen goin in to the ground. since there are 5ish roots that are almost finger thick growing in to the ground,, perhaps they all indivdualy have many fine roots on them, not to far from the trunk. In that case it could be safe to collect perhaps. Maybe thats enough roots for the 2 branches left? I am not sure what to do really. So i was thinking and came up with the idea of carefully digging around the roots from the top of the soil and removing the sand thats around there, then put a good soil mix around the roots near the surface and let it stay there for another year so it hopefully focuses on creating good feeding roots in the better soil near the top of the ground, and puts less energy on creating roots from those long roots growing away in the sand ( I will not touch those, just let them be ). Then next year prune the roots under the better soil and just lift up the pine with the soil i added. Could this work? I am not sure what soil to put around the roots. Maybe peat mixed with perlite and biochar, and maybe a little bit of a flower soil i have, its called ''urnjord'' in Swedish. I am not sure what type of soil it is exactly but here is a link https://www.hasselforsgarden.se/produkter/u-jord-urnjord/ it should be good with nutrients and good for root development. Or is it enough with just the 3 first ingredients? Or maybe something totally else? I dont have much sphagnum moss which i would use in the mix if i had more, but i need what i have left for another project. So i would use peat instead. PS. I am new to bonsai so i am still not very familiar with what soils are best for what species and yamadori.

Here are some images.. the one i draw on is kinda what it looked like last year before i pruned it, altho the top was even higher and very elongated with just 2 branches very separated from eachother.. Unfortunately i do not have a pre-prune picture.. These pictures are from mid-march this year.

 

[Yosemite Goat]

Roots will go deep in the gravelly sand and the fine roots will have to be carefully removed.

I am going to assume the lines drawn on the second to last photo is a future idea of the tree. Branches will probably not grow at any of those locations (unless grafted), even if the tree is left in place.

 

[Shogun610]

Have you identified the pine

 

[adoku]

Roots will go deep in the gravelly sand and the fine roots will have to be carefully removed.

I am going to assume the lines drawn on the second to last photo is a future idea of the tree. Branches will probably not grow at any of those locations (unless grafted), even if the tree is left in place.

If you would read what i wrote then you'd see i say its what it looked like last year before i pruned it
What it would look like i do have some ideas which involve bending. It reminds me i forgot to ask if its ok to bend it now in april same time i put some soil around it, then leave it like that until next year when i pick it up? Or maybe its better to do bending in fall or next year when in pot?

Also your answer i pretty much stated that i understand in the text. If you go back and read what i wrote perhaps you could give a more helpful answer

 

[adoku]

Have you identified the pine

Good question. I am not sure, but i think its a Scots Pine. They grow every where here in Sweden. If anyone can identify the pine just from the pictures it would be great!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Looks like a scots pine to me.

The soil you plan on using doesn't look good but my Swedish is a bit rusty. Too much organics, which is fine for most potted plants but not generally good for pines. Getting it in a good soil is one of the most important parts of collecting, because it's going to be in that soil for a number of years to recover.

Digging in rocky and sandy soil is a challenge, by lack of a better term. In dry soils the roots of pines tend to grow deep, real deep. They could be a meter down. I suggest you dig around in the soil a little before making further plans.

The best time to get it out would be now, or else in fall. Not sure how healthy it is, but if you count the buds on the tips it might give you an indication. >3 buds is good, 3 buds is OK, <3 buds is not vigorous enough.

 

[Enfield Snapper]

Then next year prune the roots under the better soil and just lift up the pine with the soil i added. Could this work?

Essentially you're wanting to ground layer it. Based on what I've read it's not likely to work. Pines often take 2-3 years to produce roots for a layer. If you're not wounding it I suspect it would take longer, if it happens at all. If you are wounding it like you normally would for a layer, the tree most likely will run out of energy before it can produce the roots it needs to survive.

 

[adoku]

Looks like a scots pine to me.

The soil you plan on using doesn't look good but my Swedish is a bit rusty. Too much organics, which is fine for most potted plants but not generally good for pines. Getting it in a good soil is one of the most important parts of collecting, because it's going to be in that soil for a number of years to recover.

Digging in rocky and sandy soil is a challenge, by lack of a better term. In dry soils the roots of pines tend to grow deep, real deep. They could be a meter down. I suggest you dig around in the soil a little before making further plans.

The best time to get it out would be now, or else in fall. Not sure how healthy it is, but if you count the buds on the tips it might give you an indication. >3 buds is good, 3 buds is OK, <3 buds is not vigorous enough.

What about the first 3 ingredients? Peat, perlite, biochar. Without that urnjord soil, would that work? If not then do you have any sugestion of what soil i could fill around the roots to stay in for a year or two.

 

[adoku]

Essentially you're wanting to ground layer it. Based on what I've read it's not likely to work. Pines often take 2-3 years to produce roots for a layer. If you're not wounding it I suspect it would take longer, if it happens at all. If you are wounding it like you normally would for a layer, the tree most likely will run out of energy before it can produce the roots it needs to survive.

I would not wound the roots, no scraping or any thing.. the plan would be to just dig 15-25 cm in to the sand around the roots and fill it up with some very good soil. Do you have any sugestions what soil i could use? If it have to stay out there for 2-3 years in that soil then i would let it be out there until it have good roots around it. The only concern is that something does happen to the tree out there.. I seen some big truck wheels couple meters from it, so i hope nothing will run it over or that someone/something destorys it somehow.. but if its been out there surviving so far then it should still stand there 3 years later.. How old could it be? 10 years or 20?

 

[adoku]

BTW Last time i checked i think it had plenty buds on the smaller branch but on the higher one not as many,, if i remember correctly.. i will check tomorrow to make sure.

If it has enough buds, could it be worth it to try dig carefully for couple hours around the roots and follow and clear each of those roots from sand as long as possible to make sure all smaller roots on all individual roots are still on. That would kinda bare root it though.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

What about the first 3 ingredients? Peat, perlite, biochar. Without that urnjord soil, would that work? If not then do you have any sugestion of what soil i could fill around the roots to stay in for a year or two.

I'm a big fan of peat, but not for bonsai.
You'd want to go with something more airy and rocky, like pumice, lavarock, akadama (I'm not a fan personally but it works for scots pines in most places!), perlite, crushed granite and mix those together or use them pure with the exception of perlite; it's too lightweight to not be mixed.
There are a lot of people growing pine bonsai, so I would copy their soils as best as possible. It works.

I use a stuff called vulcastrat, which is a 1:1:1 mixture of granite, lava rock and pumice. Sifted to a size of 2-4mm.
Pure akadama might be faster to find, but it's way more expensive too. Pure pumice seems to be good too.

Digging from the base outwards isn't my preferred method. I start at roughly 50-75cm away from the base and dig straight down in the ground to roughly 30cm. From there on, I work slowly towards the base. As soon as I find good feeder roots, I stop digging around and make a trench in a circle at that distance from the trunk. Then get under it and lift the tree out of the ground.
At home I make a wooden grow box to fit the size of the rootball.

This is a cool tree. It never hurts to collect a couple not-so-cool trees to get some experience. Then dig this one at the end of summer/start of autumn.

 

[Enfield Snapper]

I would not wound the roots, no scraping or any thing.. the plan would be to just dig 15-25 cm in to the sand around the roots and fill it up with some very good soil. Do you have any sugestions what soil i could use? If it have to stay out there for 2-3 years in that soil then i would let it be out there until it have good roots around it.

I'd have to defer to people with more experience, but I suspect that you might have better luck simply digging it out, rather than trying to layer it. I know that lots of deciduous trees will throw roots higher up if the soil there is more saturated than lower down, even without wounds. But pines don't move a lot of water, so they may not react the same way. With a mix like @Wires_Guy_wires suggested, you'd probably also need to go out to the tree and water regularly for it to have any hope at all of producing shallower roots.

Good luck with collection, I hope it works out for you.

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

I have had zero luck collecting pines from gravel. The roots just run too far away that by the time you dig one out, all the feeder roots are left behind.

 

[adoku]

I'd have to defer to people with more experience, but I suspect that you might have better luck simply digging it out, rather than trying to layer it. I know that lots of deciduous trees will throw roots higher up if the soil there is more saturated than lower down, even without wounds. But pines don't move a lot of water, so they may not react the same way. With a mix like @Wires_Guy_wires suggested, you'd probably also need to go out to the tree and water regularly for it to have any hope at all of producing shallower roots.

Good luck with collection, I hope it works out for you.

I will try my best.. Maybe the fact that i pruned of some branches last year helps it survive if i would get less roots collected.. I will do my best to collect all roots though. I seen on two of the other pines in the area (theres alot) that they have fairly many smaller or feeding roots close to the trunk after i lift them up a bit from the sand.. ( its basicaly just sand right under the gravel) and they are a bit smaller than this one. So perhaps this one have many feeding roots not to far away from the trunk. If that is the case then maybe those roots alone would be enough for the two branches that are left? If planted in good soil.

Should i maybe wait right until the buds start swelling or opening before i dig it up? So that all the energy stored in the roots are given to those two branches before disturbing the roots, maybe that will help the tree to survive with lesser roots? Then in fall the tree give back the energy to the remaining roots and let them develop properly?

Excuse me if i come with many question, but i wanna carry this away in the best possible and safest way.

Btw could you guess the age of this tree? Like i said i pruned it semi hard so it was double the size and maybe more. I am just learning about trees so i have no idea how long it takes for a scots pine to develop bark like that. Could it be 10 years? maybe 60 years? If anyone knows the age of the tree it would be appreciated : )

Thank you for the good wishes

 

[eryk2kartman]

Please dont get me wrong but i think it will be dead by next year if you dig it up, is there any other pines to take?
Cutting foliage on pines prior to collecting is not good idea, the tree needs foliage to generate new roots, more foliage=more roots to grow=more chances to survive

 

[adoku]

Please dont get me wrong but i think it will be dead by next year if you dig it up, is there any other pines to take?
Cutting foliage on pines prior to collecting is not good idea, the tree needs foliage to generate new roots, more foliage=more roots to grow=more chances to survive

Even if I manage to collect alot of roots? Or if it has a lot of finer roots near the trunk?

 

[eryk2kartman]

Like the other guys said, the roots probably go deep into the gravel, feeders will be at the low lvl.
You can gently remove some soil around and see whats there. If this is your very first attempt to collect the tree, i would skip it, maybe comeback to it in couple of years

 

[eryk2kartman]

I have had zero luck collecting pines from gravel. The roots just run too far away that by the time you dig one out, all the feeder roots are left behind.

This is answer from wise man, he knows what he is doing.

 

[adoku]

Like the other guys said, the roots probably go deep into the gravel, feeders will be at the low lvl.
You can gently remove some soil around and see whats there. If this is your very first attempt to collect the tree, i would skip it, maybe comeback to it in couple of years

its more sandy soil right beneath the gravel, other pines there have a pretty Good amount of fine roots near trunk. I will dig a bit and see if there's any Good chance. if its to risky then I will do anything possible to prepare for lift off in the future