Collected Virginia Pine

[rockm]

I've been curious about whether a collection technique that has been used on western pines would work with this species.

I've read that some collectors out there have enclosed smaller roots on pines they wants with plastic bags and sphagnum moss and left the tree to sort of ground layer over a period of time. The roots are bagged, then covered with soil to avoid overheating. Takes a year, probably more, but the bag and available moisture in it would stimulate the root to grow. The main problem, I'd think would be drainage, as the bag --I'd think--ould fill with water if not punctured prior to burial...

Haven't ever tried that, but it may offer a way forward with Va. pines in bad soil and running roots...

 

[jeanluc83]

Yeah it has a lot of potential. There are actually a few more nice ones they are all old and have nice old bark on them too. But they dont have to be removed and I'm not going to mess with them if they are just going to die. It's a shame cause there are a ton of these around here.

How is this one actually doing? It seems like you are already writing it off as a goner.

 

[ohiogrown]

How is this one actually doing? It seems like you are already writing it off as a goner.

So far it's doing great. I found a bunch of worms of some sort feeding on the needles. I handled that. But it seems to be doing good so far.

 

[GGB]

Fingers crossed for ya. I threw out a virginia pine 2 days ago. I killed it during an emergency repot in fall, teased me all winter with green needles/buds and gave up the ghost the second the weather broke. friggin' bastard

 

[River's Edge]

I collected this virginia pine today. Of course I didn't bare root it. I treated it as good as I could. Does anyone have any suggestions or tips on keeping this collection successful?

Great eye, good choice putting it in pumice. The box size looks good as well. Do not remove any foliage! That simply reduces the Photosynthesis capability of the tree. Mist the tree frequently in the morning or afternoon is best. Full sun avoid windy site but do not worry about normal air movement. If you find the pumice drying out to fast, then use shredded sphagnum moss on the surface. I have never collected this type of pine but frequently collect shore pines, that can be a challenging species to collect. my advice is based on what has worked best for me in collecting conifers. Mountain Hemlock, Sub-alpine Fir, Shore Pine primarily.
If you had a reasonable number of smaller feeder roots then you stand a good chance. Seems like you have done things right so far. Good Luck!
If you try again one thing that improves chances is visiting the site the year before and putting a little fertilizer around the surface to strengthen the feeder roots before collecting the following spring.

 

[ohiogrown]

Fingers crossed for ya. I threw out a virginia pine 2 days ago. I killed it during an emergency repot in fall, teased me all winter with green needles/buds and gave up the ghost the second the weather broke. friggin' bastard

Thanks man! Yes I also had a couple that I did the exact thing you said. They looked great all winter. I think my soil was too wet and that's what led to some of my problem that time.

Great eye, good choice putting it in pumice. The box size looks good as well. Do not remove any foliage! That simply reduces the Photosynthesis capability of the tree. Mist the tree frequently in the morning or afternoon is best. Full sun avoid windy site but do not worry about normal air movement. If you find the pumice drying out to fast, then use shredded sphagnum moss on the surface. I have never collected this type of pine but frequently collect shore pines, that can be a challenging species to collect. my advice is based on what has worked best for me in collecting conifers. Mountain Hemlock, Sub-alpine Fir, Shore Pine primarily.
If you had a reasonable number of smaller feeder roots then you stand a good chance. Seems like you have done things right so far. Good Luck!
If you try again one thing that improves chances is visiting the site the year before and putting a little fertilizer around the surface to strengthen the feeder roots before collecting the following spring.

Thanks for sharing your experience with me. I tried my best with this one and I'm hoping it works out. I dont have a ton of experience with pines but I do see a lot of potential here. I feel the same about not reducing the foliage. But do you feel like misting would run the risk of fungal issues? Like I said I dont have the experience you do but that has always been a concern for me.

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks man! Yes I also had a couple that I did the exact thing you said. They looked great all winter. I think my soil was too wet and that's what led to some of my problem that time.

Thanks for sharing your experience with me. I tried my best with this one and I'm hoping it works out. I dont have a ton of experience with pines but I do see a lot of potential here. I feel the same about not reducing the foliage. But do you feel like misting would run the risk of fungal issues? Like I said I dont have the experience you do but that has always been a concern for me.

I see that concern by certain individuals on forums. I have grouped it along with the concern that watering on a sunny day will lead to leaf damage. You know the books that stated the sun acted as a magnifying glass on the water droplets.
I never worry about the rain on foliage, artificial or otherwise. I do take steps to ensure air movement around trees and plants. I live on an island surrounded by water with lots of rain.
I also take steps to ensure my bonsai soil is free draining and use inorganic substrate. Perhaps fungal issues are more closely associated with more compact soil issues? Too much water in the soil or pot. I know moods and mildews form rapidly in enclosed areas, with little or no air movement.

 

[GGB]

Dunno what Ohio is like this time of year but I imagine those buds should be giving way to candles any day now

 

[Dav4]

Dunno what Ohio is like this time of year but I imagine those buds should be giving way to candles any day now

Serious root reduction in a pine can slow down or flat out stop candle elongation. Pushing candles would be a fantastic sign, but just staying a relatively healthy green through the summer would be ok, too.

 

[GGB]

@Dav4 that's news to me. Never experienced a summer without candles. But then again I've never collected a large pine. Thanks for clarifying, I try to speak only from experience but I guess root reductions on saplings aren't comparable haha

 

[Dav4]

@Dav4 that's news to me. Never experienced a summer without candles. But then again I've never collected a large pine. Thanks for clarifying, I try to speak only from experience but I guess root reductions on saplings aren't comparable haha

I've heard stories of collected trees that have sat for up to 2 years before the buds started to move. Personally, I've root worked my large JBP severely enough that the buds, which had started to swell when the roots were removed in March, completely stopped their elongation for several months and the candles didn't have fully opened needles on them until August.

 

[River's Edge]

Serious root reduction in a pine can slow down or flat out stop candle elongation. Pushing candles would be a fantastic sign, but just staying a relatively healthy green through the summer would be ok, too.

Collected trees are a whole different story. Particularly if a conifer, and very dependant on time of year collected. Not unusual for a collected tree to sulk and stay in neutral gear for a season. The key is root repair and general health. Often with larger, older collected trees they are not ready for any work to be done until two years after collection. Keeping them alive and improving in health is the game plan.
What would be the normal pattern of growth for a species in that climate is not the measuring stick to apply. Can it happen, yes. Is it expected, not really. After all it underwent a major transplant.

 

[ohiogrown]

If this trees candles are moving now is that pretty good indication that it will live?

 

[GGB]

If this trees candles are moving now is that pretty good indication that it will live?

I'd say it's more evidence of life than death. Hell yeah. This tree is one of my favorite projects on bonsainut currently.

 

[River's Edge]

If this trees candles are moving now is that pretty good indication that it will live?

It is a positive sign but wait for new growth extending! New needles is a very positive sign.

 

[ohiogrown]

Here are some pictures I took real quick before work.

 

[Dav4]

Wow, looking pretty vigorous considering it was just collected! Stay the course, though... feed and water only, lots of sun, and let's see how it grows next spring.

 

[theta]

Yeah, that's looking great!

I collected (and killed) a Virginia pine earlier this season. Was misting it regularly and keeping it somewhat shaded. Then moved it and I think when the real heat kicked in, it was just too much. I didn't get nearly as much roots as I should have. They are tough to collect. Seems like the roots can go forever, even though they're only like 5" below the surface they just RUN away from the trunk!

I'm gonna keep experimenting though and see what the best practices are. Did you get any pics of the roots when you collected? Were they mostly concentrated close to the trunk or did you wrap up a long runner in there?

 

[jeanluc83]

It looks good.

The tree is stressed but recovering. This is shown in how the needles near the end of the candle that are opening and the ones closer to the base of the candle are not. I have noticed this with stressed pitch pine in the past. Usually after too much abuse during repotting. But, if the needles are growing it means the roots are growing.

 

[ohiogrown]

Wow, looking pretty vigorous considering it was just collected! Stay the course, though... feed and water only, lots of sun, and let's see how it grows next spring.

I have it in a location that gets good morning sun. I rotate the tree every couple weeks. But I have not fed the tree at all. I was worried that it would just burn the roots up. I was thinking it would be best to wait till late summer so it could get the energy needed for frost protection and store energy for next spring. I figured by then it should have decent roots. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that idea. I think some of the best advice you or someone gave me was to put the tree in a place and not to move it around. I think that was part of the key of it doing well now. In the past I have moved trees around for various reasons.

Yeah, that's looking great!

I collected (and killed) a Virginia pine earlier this season. Was misting it regularly and keeping it somewhat shaded. Then moved it and I think when the real heat kicked in, it was just too much. I didn't get nearly as much roots as I should have. They are tough to collect. Seems like the roots can go forever, even though they're only like 5" below the surface they just RUN away from the trunk!

I'm gonna keep experimenting though and see what the best practices are. Did you get any pics of the roots when you collected? Were they mostly concentrated close to the trunk or did you wrap up a long runner in there?

I know what your saying about the roots! This thing had very little roots. I'm going to post some other pictures I have that was from the day of collection. It looks like a decent chunk of the native clay that's attached at the base. But like you said most the best roots were way out away from the tree. I kinda just dug a circle around the tree and cut all the roots off. The chunk of clay in the picture I dug away at least half the clay in the picture looking for roots but there was very little and seemed like I was loosing them taking the clay away so I left a little under half of the clay you see in the photo. I dusted everything with rooting powder before putting it in the box.

It looks good.

The tree is stressed but recovering. This is shown in how the needles near the end of the candle that are opening and the ones closer to the base of the candle are not. I have noticed this with stressed pitch pine in the past. Usually after too much abuse during repotting. But, if the needles are growing it means the roots are growing.

The needles literally just started opening this week. I think that's what your seeing. Or maybe I'm wrong and they will not open at all at the base. I'm not doubting the stress of the tree But from looking at it in person it looks to me as if eventually they all will open. Time will tell and I'll keep posting photos so you guys can see.