Collected or from seed?

[Adair M]

The petioles Adair! Don't forget the long petioles for God's sake!

Yeah... That's true, sometimes. Not always. Some trees like Trident Maple leaves can have long petioles, but the leaves and internodes will reduce substantially.

But you're right, most of the time, a tree with long petioles will have long interspersed.

 

[Dav4]

Noodge 'em both!!

 

[michaelj]

I'm just going to say - go ahead but don't be disappointed when you spend the first 20 years achieving nothing.

I've only met one person in 40 years of doing bonsai who made good bonsai from seed - and I've met a LOT of professionals and amateurs. It's incredibly hard and requires decades of experience before you start.

I've seen more than one. In fact, one of the things I noticed when I got back into bonsai after spending, essentially, twenty years away from it, is that in the interim, there seemed to be a shift away from prizing the no-scar, trained from seedling tree, which was a real badge of honor and indicator of experience and skill when I was first introduced to bonsai in the early 1980s. When I first got into it, I remember a sizable minority of older bonsaiists who, instead of warning people that their method would mean "you spend the first 20 years achieving nothing", would scoff at the people who used what they thought of as a cheap and easy method of chopping back, leaving ugly scars that can never be fully hidden. They preached patience and would remind us young guys that nothing truly worth having could be achieved in a mere five or ten years, as they showed off their 40 year old black pines with no pruning marks bigger than a pencil eraser. You almost never hear people talk like that anymore, and you rarely see a tree of any note that hasn't been cut back severely.

Having still retained some of that programming from the early 80s, I do have a lot of stuff grown from seed or saplings in my collection, but I've only been back in bonsai for less than four years, so they are all still sticks in pots. I like the fact that they started from nothing but a little seed, but the progress is very, very slow. I'm probably not going to live long enough to see them become great trees. And with some species, it's ridiculously slow and not worth it. I tried growing needle junipers from seed. Few took, and the one (out of 25 seeds, IIRC) that made it is two years old now and about three inches tall. A cutting I struck at the same time is now two feet tall with a trunk that's over half an inch thick. I'll never waste my time on juniper seeds again. Other stuff is great, though, especially trident maples. Growing those from seed is fun and they progress reasonably quickly. I have plenty of those, grown from seed, that would be snapped up quickly at a club raffle.

I'll take some seeds for seiju and hokkaido elms and maybe some deshojo Japanese maple seeds in that case.
If you can get those I got a bridge to sell you.

I'd never thought about or noticed that. Are those varieties completely seedless, even if you grow them in the ground for 10 or 20 years?

 

[coh]

I think his point is, you can't grow a deshojo (or any other specific cultivar) from seed. Being a cultivar, the only way to reproduce it is by cutting, layering, etc. Of course, if you collect, plant and grow enough seeds from enough trees, you're bound to eventually get a specimen that very closely resembles that particular cultivar. After all, it happened at least once already!

Personally, I like growing trees from seeds. Have a number of things in development that I started that way or purchased as very young seedlings. Tridents, Japanese maples, various hornbeams, styrax, zelkova, some pines...all fun and some develop relatively quickly. Still, since this is my first time doing it, I'm making mistakes and learning along the way...so probably most of these won't turn out very well (in the "bonsai sense"). And since I'm already in my 50s, I don't have as much time to figure it out as someone starting in their 20s.

 

[rockm]

I've seen more than one. In fact, one of the things I noticed when I got back into bonsai after spending, essentially, twenty years away from it, is that in the interim, there seemed to be a shift away from prizing the no-scar, trained from seedling tree, which was a real badge of honor and indicator of experience and skill when I was first introduced to bonsai in the early 1980s. When I first got into it, I remember a sizable minority of older bonsaiists who, instead of warning people that their method would mean "you spend the first 20 years achieving nothing", would scoff at the people who used what they thought of as a cheap and easy method of chopping back, leaving ugly scars that can never be fully hidden. They preached patience and would remind us young guys that nothing truly worth having could be achieved in a mere five or ten years, as they showed off their 40 year old black pines with no pruning marks bigger than a pencil eraser. You almost never hear people talk like that anymore, and you rarely see a tree of any note that hasn't been cut back severely.

Having still retained some of that programming from the early 80s, I do have a lot of stuff grown from seed or saplings in my collection, but I've only been back in bonsai for less than four years, so they are all still sticks in pots. I like the fact that they started from nothing but a little seed, but the progress is very, very slow. I'm probably not going to live long enough to see them become great trees. And with some species, it's ridiculously slow and not worth it. I tried growing needle junipers from seed. Few took, and the one (out of 25 seeds, IIRC) that made it is two years old now and about three inches tall. A cutting I struck at the same time is now two feet tall with a trunk that's over half an inch thick. I'll never waste my time on juniper seeds again. Other stuff is great, though, especially trident maples. Growing those from seed is fun and they progress reasonably quickly. I have plenty of those, grown from seed, that would be snapped up quickly at a club raffle.



I'd never thought about or noticed that. Are those varieties completely seedless, even if you grow them in the ground for 10 or 20 years?

I noticed back in the 80's early 90's that there were also a few bonsai purists that had their own (rather cramped) view of bonsai. They tended to look down their nose at any stock that wasn't theirs. People like Dan Robinson and heck even John Naka, were using chop techniques to develop trees. Robinson, who was the first to use a chainsaw to design a tree was seen as a heretic by those who warned against such things.

The point here is hardly to keep someone from something revolutionary. It's to clarify the bullshit we're being offered about what is so goddamned revolutionary. Sure, good to excellent bonsai can be grown from seed, but rarely by someone who doesn't understand where to begin or where to go or how to do it along the way. Seeds are not just left to grow in a field if they are to be bonsai...

 

[rockm]

And FWIW, here are some drastically chopped trees, from the Japanese and Chinese collection at the National Arb.


The crab apple at right was started in 1905, the Japanese beech forest is from 1936 and yeah, it's had trunk chops. The two Wee Yu Sun Sageretias were started in the 1950s and have repeated trunk chops or substantial reductions. There are more than a few others...

 

[jeremy_norbury]

I've seen more than one. In fact, one of the things I noticed when I got back into bonsai after spending, essentially, twenty years away from it, is that in the interim, there seemed to be a shift away from prizing the no-scar, trained from seedling tree, which was a real badge of honor and indicator of experience and skill when I was first introduced to bonsai in the early 1980s. When I first got into it, I remember a sizable minority of older bonsaiists who, instead of warning people that their method would mean "you spend the first 20 years achieving nothing", would scoff at the people who used what they thought of as a cheap and easy method of chopping back, leaving ugly scars that can never be fully hidden. They preached patience and would remind us young guys that nothing truly worth having could be achieved in a mere five or ten years, as they showed off their 40 year old black pines with no pruning marks bigger than a pencil eraser. You almost never hear people talk like that anymore, and you rarely see a tree of any note that hasn't been cut back severely.

Having still retained some of that programming from the early 80s, I do have a lot of stuff grown from seed or saplings in my collection, but I've only been back in bonsai for less than four years, so they are all still sticks in pots. I like the fact that they started from nothing but a little seed, but the progress is very, very slow. I'm probably not going to live long enough to see them become great trees. And with some species, it's ridiculously slow and not worth it. I tried growing needle junipers from seed. Few took, and the one (out of 25 seeds, IIRC) that made it is two years old now and about three inches tall. A cutting I struck at the same time is now two feet tall with a trunk that's over half an inch thick. I'll never waste my time on juniper seeds again. Other stuff is great, though, especially trident maples. Growing those from seed is fun and they progress reasonably quickly. I have plenty of those, grown from seed, that would be snapped up quickly at a club raffle.



I'd never thought about or noticed that. Are those varieties completely seedless, even if you grow them in the ground for 10 or 20 years?

I read what you said but I have absolutely no idea how it relates to what I stated, so please clarify.

 

[Lynn E]

I'll take some seeds for seiju and hokkaido elms and maybe some deshojo Japanese maple seeds in that case.
If you can get those I got a bridge to sell you.


Speaking of which,are you ever going to put up a picture of your fabulous trees or what?

Every few months we get these guys. Like tantric and serloco and the hari Krishna dude.
Potty is the only one to stay around to plague us with weirdness. I really hope this other guy stays too. If he can't get along with @sorce we're going to have some fun.

Maybe Samantha is back??

 

[michaelj]

I read what you said but I have absolutely no idea how it relates to what I stated, so please clarify.

You said "I've only met one person in 40 years of doing bonsai who made good bonsai from seed - and I've met a LOT of professionals and amateurs." I was offering an experience that differed from that. I've met several really good bonsai artists who've grown at least some of their show trees from seed.

The rest was just talking about the changes I've noticed since the 1980s regarding the attitudes toward growing from seed. Then, it was considered almost a higher form of art, at least among some of the elite artists. Now, it's mostly considered an inefficient use of time.

 

[sorce]

Apparently sorce believes that if a tree is grown from seed it take 90 years to grow! Well i got news for you buddy boy, ALL trees grow from seed. That was a hard one wasnt it. Believe it or not, it is THE truth. NO LIES!! ROFL!!

You didn't even read what I typed!

This is the stupidest thing I have ever read on this forum.

If you would stop and think for a second...
You would realize you didn't come here talking about growing trees...

You came talking about growing Bonsai.

Maybe @0soyoung could give us more scientific information....

But when you cut a branch off a "tree", at the time you are talking about....small,
It will do about 90% less to help to said "tree" get big.

Mother nature made the rules.
You can not break them..

I am not saying you can't start these bonsai....
I'm saying you can not finish them.

I like @abqjoe cuz at least he uses his brain!
And has guns to "fight the power".

If I am going to get along with serloco, I mean, this dude...

Just start thinking.

That starts with reading, then think about what you read.

Please.

Sorce

 

[aml1014]

Now I will say that I'm growing trees for bonsai from seed, lots of them, like hundreds a year. Do I plan on seeing them reach a mature bonsai? No, and I'm only 21. I'm growing trees from seed to sell as stock, in at least 10 years down the road. That's why it's good I'm starting now. In 10 years, I'll have some decent prebonsai stock that will take at least another 10 years to be trained and turn into a bonsai. Even then, each of those trees will have substantial reductions and most likely some large wounds to heal in the future.
All the guys here give me shit for having hundreds of trees, but I love any and all plants. The only trees I currently have from seed that will be bonsai within the next few years will be some mame elms. Which grow ridiculously fast and they will be tiny.

Aaron

 

[wireme]

Now I will say that I'm growing trees for bonsai from seed, lots of them, like hundreds a year. Do I plan on seeing them reach a mature bonsai? No, and I'm only 21. I'm growing trees from seed to sell as stock, in at least 10 years down the road. That's why it's good I'm starting now. In 10 years, I'll have some decent prebonsai stock that will take at least another 10 years to be trained and turn into a bonsai. Even then, each of those trees will have substantial reductions and most likely some large wounds to heal in the future.
All the guys here give me shit for having hundreds of trees, but I love any and all plants. The only trees I currently have from seed that will be bonsai within the next few years will be some mame elms. Which grow ridiculously fast and they will be tiny.

Aaron

In pots or do you have a growing field?

I only have about 10 started from seed, I like them, always mean to start more in the spring.

 

[michaelj]

I love growing stuff from seed. My latest projects include some exotic species, such as Thailand Rosewood and Rainbow eucalyptus, neither of which is particularly suitable as bonsai, but they make great specimen trees. My largest rainbow is now almost three feet tall, and the rosewoods are germinating at rates close to 90%, although all are brand new and have no more than a few pairs of leaves right now. I'm hoping I wasn't duped on the seed sale, because the mature trees are worth between $17,000 per ton to $50,000 per cubic meter of wood.

I'm planning on putting them all on my hill this fall.

 

[aml1014]

In pots or do you have a growing field?

I only have about 10 started from seed, I like them, always mean to start more in the spring.

In pots. I don't really like caring for stuff in the ground, I tend to forget about them until they are pissed of for water lol. I only started doing seeds last spring and sold quite a bit of what I had, and hope this year is a semisuccessfull one as well.

Aaron

 

[MichaelS]

f

"somnium

,

I do hope you have a long enough life! I am estimating that I will have, at best, some good beginners in 3 years.

I have grown all my trees from the start. Seed, cutting, layering and grafting. You will need 10 years to have something to look at with the very fast growers. 15 years for the medium and 25 to 30 for the slower ones. You need to plan very well right from the start but it can be done. Just as an example. Juniperus procumbends can have a 3'' diameter trunk in 10 years (planted in the ground and worked properly including root pruning and wiring) Shimpaku would take a generation to get to the same diameter.
Crabapple is very fast. Black pine is fast too. Chinese elm in 10 to 15 years could be ready for exhibition with a 3 to 4 inch nebari and ramified at least 4 times. Plan Plan Plan or you will waste years! Don't be afraid of very heavy cuts during the first decade. By the time you pot them they will be healed. Pines are cut leaving stumps. You can jin or break off the dead wood years later and it will look natural. I don't know how young you are but if you're over say 35, time is slippin slippin slippin........

I am not only doing seeds, I have some seeds started for some European Ashes that I plan to graft into 'aurea' cultivars. Oh yes I agree horticulture should be fully embraced. I also plan of doing some layerings for some cherries and 'Bloodgoods'

I would not bother with the golden ash. They are way too course in growth and the yellow branches on the rough barked stock looks bad. You would be wasting good time and end up throwing them away later. The straight euro Ashes however make great bonsai on their own. You can defoliate twice or three time per year.

 

[rockm]

"Of course I have seen thousands upon thousands of bonsai pictures, both collected and from seed. I like the ability to grow a natural taper from seed."

Here's some really crappy chops at the National Arb. BTW, the first Bald Cypress is about probably as big as you are. The Blue Atlas Cedars are both John Naka's. Both were developed from larger trees cut down, as were the trees in "Goshin."..You've seen Goshin, haven't you? Hello, hellooo, this thing on?

Also taper isn't "grown" into seedlings. It is forced--with repeated cuts to the apex. Seedlings don't develop much, if any, taper until they're 30 feet tall.

 

[Anthony]

And then someone from the Tropics, started talking about ground growing and seeds.
Lifted a tamarind from the growing trough at about 3 inches in trunk, after one year.
Now restarting for training.

Yes, but signs of age still takes 8 to 10 years.
Hiya @ Sorce and Gogeerah
Good Day
Anthony

 

[M. Frary]

And then someone from the Tropics, started talking about ground growing and seeds.
Lifted a tamarind from the growing trough at about 3 inches in trunk, after one year.
Now restarting for training.

Yes, but signs of age still takes 8 to 10 years.
Hiya @ Sorce and Gogeerah
Good Day
Anthony

There he goes again! Another drive by posting!

 

[sorce]

Fuckin Anthony.

Sorce

 

[Tim.E]

The parallels between this guy and serloco are just amazing! Both in Ontario, both starting the "bonsai nurseries to end all bonsai nurseries." Compare this guys first thread called "bonsai farm" with serloco's "bonsai arboretum." Gotta be the same person, or closely related at least! Maybe they can pool their resources and buy NEBG.

Just want to point out that there are some rational people from Ontario who don't want to sell mallsai on every corner or dig every tree on every hill... There are some of us who are "normal" (insert sorce joke)