Coh's JBP

[Adair M]

I copied this picture from BVF's time capsule thread.



Here's what I see:

This tree was not decandled this year. The needles are long and appear to fairly thin. The internodes are getting long. 2 inches or so. Guy wires appear to be the primary training technique. The soil surface appears to be good soil.

The trunk is a little thin for the height of the tree. Being in a bonsai pot, the trunk will not be getting much thicker. The bark is beginning to get rough.

To advance this tree:

Choice one: take it out of the pot and put it either in the ground, or a large colander to allow a branch to escape and build trunk girth.

Choice Two: keep it in the bonsai pot and work on ramification of what's there.

In either case, this tree is malnourished. It's crying for fertilizer. I don't know about the soil it's in. The surface soil looks good but what's underneath? I'm guessing that there's a lot of the original nursery soil underneath. Which means next spring it gets a half bare root repotting

It also needs fertilizing now. To build strength for next spring.

Next spring, after the half bare root repot, wait 3 weeks and begin fertilizing. Add more each week. Until decandling time. After decandling, refrain from fertilizing until the summer needles appear, then resume fertilizing campaign.

This fall, remove the damn guy wires and wire this thing out properly. Pull all 2014 needles, which will make it easier to wire. Wire every branch, every twig all the way out to the tip.

I'm sorry, but the guy wires are a lazy mans method. They will never produce top results.

If you need to learn to wire, watch the Colin Lewis tutorials on www.Craftsy.com. They're free once you register. You simply can't place branches properly using only guy wires. Guy wires are a "last resort " technique to move heavy branches.

Bonsai is wiring, and wiring is bonsai.

For conifers, it's the only way.

If you think I'm coming on too strong, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to pick on coh, but I see a lot of folks making similar mistakes.

Bonsai is obedience training for trees. Too many people let their trees do what the trees want to do. No, we have to take control over the tree. We fertilize, provide good soil and water to make the tree strong to be able to do the tasks we demand of it. Which is to tolerate wiring. The thing is, a properly wired tree exposes the inside of the tree to the sun. Which promotes back budding, interior growth, and overall better health.

Is it tedious? You bet. Will you have to remove the wire in the future? You bet. Then rewire!

Bonsai is wiring, and wiring is bonsai.

 

[Smoke]

In your opinion.....

 

[Adair M]

Yes, in my opinion!

 

[johng]

I try really hard to stay off your threads... I hope you were intoxicated when you wrote this one....or at least invited to critique Chris's tree.

Let's see a few of the jbp, or any trees for that matter, that you have developed on your own Adair in your 40 years of experience....not purchased as nearly finished trees. Perhaps if they are really nice it will out weigh your terribly condescending attitude and your beyond pretentious, self- proclaimed master of jbp status.

I know you believe yourself to be well intended but you really should have someone else read your posts for tone and attitude before posting... It doesn't matter if what you say is good advice when you say it in such an offensive way.

 

[YukiShiro]

Adair, if I may ask a question?

how would you or rather from where would you grow a sacrifice branch, from the top of the tree? or would you grow several from different parts of the tree and let them grow to different lengths to establish a bit more taper?

Best regards
Herman

 

[YukiShiro]

I try really hard to stay off your threads... I hope you were intoxicated when you wrote this one....or at least invited to critique Chris's tree.

Let's see a few of the jbp, or any trees for that matter, that you have developed on your own Adair in your 40 years of experience....not purchased as nearly finished trees. Perhaps if they are really nice it will out weigh your terribly condescending attitude and your beyond pretentious, self- proclaimed master of jbp status.

I know you believe yourself to be well intended but you really should have someone else read your posts for tone and attitude before posting... It doesn't matter if what you say is good advice when you say it in such an offensive way.

Geeze you people are over sensitive.....

 

[M. Frary]

What brought that on? Yikes!
And of course COH is up for this?

 

[sorce]

or at least invited to critique Chris's tree

Ditto.

But...

remove the damn guy wires and wire this thing out properly.

Bwayne told me this very thing about that Ficus and I am glad for it.

I don't care who is slapping ([Shohin]google corrected who in to Shohin, rock on!) who in the face if our trees get better for it.

It would be funny as hell if COH said,
"Yes but the tree is going to be literate the healthy part is in the back!"

I mean, there is more than a perfect big trunk JBP.

Good info tho. If that's the path.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

Well, actually, I was a bit intoxicated when I wrote that.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone.

I'll see if I can dig up some photos of trees I've developed. I didn't photograph my stuff way back then.

To answer a question,

Yes, you can let two sacrifice branches go at the same time. Whichever one is the highest will dominate. That is, the sacrifice with the highest (tallest) bud will dominate.

Here's the earliest picture I can find of this one. It started as a black pine bush I bought from Plant City who got it from Brussels. At this point I had reduced the root ball to get it in the bonsai pot. And chopped the trunk to shorten it by about half, and let it grow for a year.



After pulling a lot of needles, some branch selection and first wiring:



Beginning to develop ramification:



Planning on changing the potting angle:



Repotted and wired:



Let it grow:



That's the process. I was going for the "Develop Ramification" path rather than the sacrifice branch path for this tree. Development will continue over time.

 

[coh]

And good morning to you too, Adair! LOL.

I have to work today and will reply in full later, but I did want to say one thing regarding guy wires, as I see these kinds of comments on a regular basis.

In this case, guy wires are not being used as a lazy mans method of training. I simply applied them this summer in order to temporarily pull some branches down (mainly at the bottom, but also higher up). Two reasons: (1) to see how it looked, and (2) to allow more air and light into the tree. Proper wiring will take place at the appropriate time.

I do this quite often with trees and find it helpful.

Anyway, sober up and we can talk more later

Chris

 

[Adair M]

Glad you didn't take offense!

By the way, the wine was excellent! Which is why I drank too much of it. Way back in the late 1970's, I worked in the consulting department of one of the Big 8 Accounting firms. I travelled all the time. On an expense account.

I was single, and had more spending money than I knew what to do with. I had developed a taste for good wine, so I "invested" in mixed cases. I would buy two or three bottles of this, and two or three bottles of that until it made up a case (12), and I'd get the case discount.

One of my favorites was the Beaulieu Vinyards George de LaTour Private Reserve. They were rather expensive, so I "collected" them rather than drank them.

Over the years, the cases of wine moved with me. Unfortunately, at one time or another, the glue let go on a couple of the bottles, and the labels fell off!

The BV private reserve had little vintage labels at the base of the neck of the bottle. They were especially prone to come off.

Anyway... Last night, I went down to the basement for a bottle of wine, and came across this one with no labels on the front. There was a back label, so I knew it was a Private Reserve. From the '70's or maybe even the 1960's.

So, whatever year it was, it was great!

 

[LanceMac10]

As soon as I get home I'm gonna post my JBP!!

Adair will probably say, "Kindling".......hehehehe...

Just kidding, now....I actually have better posts after a couple of "Wobbly Pops"

Maybe these critiques are better aimed at schmoos like me!!
Adair, would you like to give me some pointers?
I need 'em!!

 

[johng]

Thanks for admitting your state of mind...typically even you aren't as obnoxious as your first post comes across!

Nice healthy tree...reasonable progression...might be BIB show ready in another 5 years

Since you are developing branches already you must be ok with the lack of taper in the first 2/3rds of the trunk...

If you think I'm coming on too strong, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to pick on coh, but I see a lot of folks making similar mistakes.

In your estimation have you made any mistakes as you have been working on this one?

 

[Adair M]

Thanks for admitting your state of mind...typically even you aren't as obnoxious as your first post comes across!

Nice healthy tree...reasonable progression...might be BIB show ready in another 5 years

Since you are developing branches already you must be ok with the lack of taper in the first 2/3rds of the trunk...



In your estimation have you made any mistakes as you have been working on this one?

Oh yes! This was a tree I started before going to Boon's. There is the lack of taper on the lower trunk. There was a section of reverse taper up near the apex. To really develop this tree, I should have planted it in the ground, or at least an Anderson flat or something and let a low branch grow unchecked for five years or so.

I didn't have the patience for that!

John, you are correct: I much prefer to aquire more advanced material and apply my skills towards refinement than developing bonsai from raw stock. I happen to enjoy wiring. So detail wiring doesn't bother me, it's my favorite part! I know some hate it.

Sorry I was obnoxious. I have poor people skills! I think, too, I've been spending too much time on the Internet, and not with my trees. So, today I'm wiring a JWP.

 

[Adair M]

And, I have never been particularly good at "styling". With bonsai, I'm more technition or engineer than artist. I marvel at the designs you good artists make!

Once the plan is set, I know what to do. The details of wiring and repotting, those are my forte. But I don't have a good artist's eye. I will often have to study a tree for a long time before I "see the tree". And even then, I suspect there's a better one in there I just don't see.

 

[barrosinc]

I wouldn't mind critique like that on all my trees.

I can see how using a tree as bad example without the owner even knowing can come out as offensive. But I see done good pointers.

Guy wires are fine in my opinion, I have done trees with the branch wired to get a bit of movement but not enough holding power to really move it like a guy wire can.

 

[Adair M]

Oh, coh's tree is not a "bad example". It's got great potential! I agree guy wires do have their place. I use them. But, some people use them exclusively. Instead of traditional wiring. You just can't put in all the little curves and stuff with guy wires. Too often using them results in "rainbow" branches.

Typically when I use them, I've fully wired out the branch. And if the wire won't hold the position I've chosen, then I'll use a guy wire. To assure not getting a rainbow branch, sometimes I have to use a piece of rebar. Wire the rebar to the branch, then use guy wires to pull on the rebar.

There I go with the engineering again!

 

[barrosinc]

Oh, coh's tree is not a "bad example". It's got great potential! I agree guy wires do have their place. I use them. But, some people use them exclusively. Instead of traditional wiring. You just can't put in all the little curves and stuff with guy wires. Too often using them results in "rainbow" branches.

Typically when I use them, I've fully wired out the branch. And if the wire won't hold the position I've chosen, then I'll use a guy wire. To assure not getting a rainbow branch, sometimes I have to use a piece of rebar. Wire the rebar to the branch, then use guy wires to pull on the rebar.

There I go with the engineering again!

Exactly what I meant with my third phrase... from one engineer to another.

 

[coh]

OK, Adair (and anyone else) - let's talk!

First, let me say that I appreciate you taking the time to make this thread. When I first read it I was a little put off by the tone I perceived ("remove the damn guy wires" for example, and the assumption about there being bad nursery soil in the root mass), but I've interacted with you enough to know that your intentions were to be helpful. So thanks again for taking the time.

I do post on these forums to get feedback. Otherwise, what's the point? If all I wanted to do was show pretty pictures I'd start a blog. Anything I put up is fair game for critique. I do appreciate when the critique is useful as opposed to mean-spirited, and I prefer up-front honesty as opposed to subtle insults that some around here enjoy.

Anyway, I'll start off by mentioning why I bought this particular tree...since I think that goes toward your comments about the height and trunk thickness.

You know I'm relatively new at this (going on 5 years). I love pines and have a few coming along, but they are developing trunks and branches...so I was looking for one that was a little more developed to learn pine management techniques (needle reduction, wiring, etc). This one fit the bill perfectly in terms of what I was looking for. Trunk developed with nice aging bark, branches established in the right places with lots of secondary branching, already in a bonsai pot...and the price was right. It was ready for the next stage, though it was obvious that it first needed repotting and strengthening.

Yes, the trunk is thin. It's about 1.5" just above the roots. The overall height right now is 21", so that somewhat exceeds the often-quoted 6:1 ratio (it's more like 14:1). I plan to reduce the height a bit, but it's always going to be a thin trunked, taller tree. Now, maybe in 5 years I get tired of that and plant it in the ground or a bigger pot to increase the trunk size (or sell it to someone who wants to do that), but for now I'm OK with it. I think part of the reason it looks "off" now is because the top is over-grown with an over-abundance of long needles.

This is getting lengthy so I'll end here and write a separate post to finish up.

 

[coh]

Continuing, as the previous post was getting long...

Let's go through some of your points one at a time

1) Tree was partly decandled this year. I removed strong candles from the middle and upper sections (you may be able to see a few immature candles in the photo, needles are currently lengthening). I chose to leave most of the candles because the tree was somewhat weak last year and was repotted this spring. Mistake? Perhaps, but I felt it was best for the tree to let it build strength. If you would have done something differently, I'd like to hear about it.

2) I do not think the tree is malnourished; this is a flaw in the photograph (I didn't correct for the light color). Tree is healthy green, in fact I had it at a club workshop last week and several members commented positively on its health. Is the tree as strong as it could be...probably not, but I'm working on that (fertilizing, fertilizing). Reminder here, be careful when making judgements on tree health from photos...

3) Tree is in a good aggregate-based bonsai soil...not "boon mix" per se but similar. It was repotted this spring. There is no old junk/nursery soil in the root mass. The roots didn't look as vigorous as I had hoped; most of the roots were growing along the sides and bottom of the root pad. I did clear out about 1/3 of the root mass and completely replaced the soil in that area. At future repots I will continue this process. Maybe at some point it would benefit from time in a colander to encourage more fine rooting closer to the trunk.

4) My plan was (and still is) to remove old needles this fall, thin out/cut back where appropriate, and wire. As noted in the previous post, the guy wires were just added this summer to open things up a bit.

Ultimately, I put this tree in the time capsule because it's going to look a LOT different in 3 years. Needle size should be reduced, excess branches thinned out, height and width reduced. Hopefully everything will look more in scale.

Anyway, that's about all I have to say. Hopefully it didn't sound too defensive. Any other thoughts or comments, feel free. All part of the learning process.

Chris