Clorgan's 2020-2025 azalea entry

Not sure what your climate is there, but be careful when repotting in fall, to protect from freeze thaw cycles. Best to not freeze at all after heavy root work like you are proposing in the fall.

We do get temperatures below zero here in England, not to the same extent as other countries I imagine. But that's a good point, will look into that thank you. May seek out some knowledgeable English folk on here!

Really looking at joining a bonsai club to hopefully learn more, but not going to be possible yet with the current world events
 
Yes, the issue for you is that the later in the growing season, the less aggressive you want to prune the roots. But since you have your in a nursery pot, you want to get it out and into something better asap. But when you do prune the roots, you don't want to come in next year and aggressively prune them some more. You likely had better backbudding because you did not remove roots. But the downside is that now you cannot really do the aggressive root pruning you may want, risk free. And if you prune a little bit right now, if you want to do an aggressive prune, that moment would come spring 2022. So my point is that for this competition, developing nebari is kind of too slow a process. That on top of any other complicating factors. Now you are in the UK, which means your growing season in autumn is not very long. But your winters are also quite mild. So for the sake of the competition, you might want to go in and try to do it anyway, and risk losing it in a winter where your plant suddenly has to face very cold weather with a sharp wind, and be desiccated because of lack of proper root system. Or you may be fine and you won't have to touch your roots at all for a couple of years, with the nebari kinda set up well.

Probably, it may be best to just do a horticulture-responsible repot this autumn and hope for the best nebari-wise. If you want to do set up the nebari flare properly, you have to bare root your entire root system, then saw off a large part of the bottom of your root ball. And then go in and cut all these surface roots from the top down until you have a radial flare you like. If you do that this autumn, you are taking risks. If you don't do it, your next window is spring 2022. Or you can opt to not do the aggressive root pruning at all in favour of more growth. Long term, ignoring the competition, doing the nebari thing is probably the best option. So then do it spring 2022. And use this fall's repot to set up the roots for proper growing. Maybe for the competition, never doing this aggressive root pruning is the better choice, as it allows you more growth on the tree itself. And you likely won't get the nebari results by 2025 after setting up the roots properly in 2022.
 
Last edited:
Yes, the issue for you is that the later in the growing season, the less aggressive you want to prune the roots. But since you have your in a nursery pot, you want to get it out and into something better asap. But when you do prune the roots, you don't want to come in next year and aggressively prune them some more. You likely had better backbudding because you did not remove roots. But the downside is that now you cannot really do the aggressive root pruning you may want, risk free. And if you prune a little bit right now, if you want to do an aggressive prune, that moment would come spring 2022. So my point is that for this competition, developing nebari is kind of too slow a process. That on top of any other complicating factors. Now you are in the UK, which means your growing season in autumn is not very long. But your winters are also quite mild. So for the sake of the competition, you might want to go in and try to do it anyway, and risk losing it in a winter where your plant suddenly has to face very cold weather with a sharp wind, and be desiccated because of lack of proper root system. Or you may be fine and you won't have to touch your roots at all for a couple of years, with the nebari kinda set up well.

Probably, it may be best to just do a horticulture-responsible repot this autumn and hope for the best nebari-wise. If you want to do it properly, you have to bare root your entire root system, then prune off most of the roots. And then cut all these roots from the top down until you have a radial flare you like. If you do that this autumn, you are taking risks. If you don't do it, your next window is spring 2022. Or you can opt to not do the aggressive root pruning at all in favour of more growth. Long term, ignoring the competition, doing the nebari thing is probably the best option. So then do it spring 2022. And use this fall's repot to set up the roots for proper growing.

Yeah I think I agree with you - I'd want it to be the best it can for the competition, but need to think long term. I'd rather it survives and thrives in the long run!

Ok so to be doubley sure, a reasonable plan would be:

-2020 late summer/early autumn repot. Cut roots slightly and put in a smaller nursery style pot (I had ordered a shohin bonsai pot but that'd require too much root pruning). So a kind of half way between current pot and bonsai pot

-aim for a pot a few sizes smaller than what it's currently in

-spring 2022 full root prune and repot into small bonsai pot

-ignore the current surface roots and trust they will be fine, or cover them up with some compost?

Thanks again for all your help, much appreciated 😊
 
I kind of edited my post to clarify. With a long term goal in mind, and the competition being secondary, I would do it like this.

Late August-early September 2020:
Get it out of the nursery pot, remove the bottom 1/5th of the roots if it is really pot-bound and that part is soggy.
Rake open the root ball. Likely, the surface will be covered with roots trying to find a way out of the pot. Open those up. Use a chopstick or something similar. You will tear out some pieces of the root system, but that is fine. It has plenty. It looks like you already raked away the survace of the root ball. Often, there is a lot of leaves, or moss, or the nursery uses mulch.
If you can wash-power blast out some of that old soil. You aren't bare rooting it, but sometimes you can at least clean up some roots by washing them with water, depending on how many roots there are.
Pot it in a terracotta training pot with 50% kanuma, 50% coarse peat/potting soil. I don't why it was to go in a bonsai pot right away. The display is in 2025. You want results in terms of growth for a couple of years.

Then it should be growing a ton come spring 2021. Which is what you want. But at some point you want to go in and prune a tiny bit, to prevent reverse taper, or prevent branches that will be needed for the final design that are 5 shoots from one node. So reduce to two shoots two leaves, kind of pruning. You want to prune as little as possible because you already pruned heavily in 2020 and you will be pruning heavily again in 2022.

Then spring 2022, assuming it has been healthy and growing a lot in 2021, you can cut back aggressively, keeping in mind a final design. And then cut off the lower 2/3rd of the root ball. Then you wash out as much of the soil. Then go in with a chopstick and try to get inbetween the roots as much as possible and remove stuff. Then observe the top of the roots and see which top roots need to be pruned away. And you repot it, maybe now in 100% kanuma and a bonsai pot, with the root flare you like. The roots then will look like the picture in Woocash's thread. Not a lot of roots, but also not a lot of leaves, so that's fine.

Then come spring 2025, it probably need another repot. You could then decide on your final and smaller bonsai pot. But since you want to take your display picture, you won't do a lot of root pruning. Or you can repot after you take your display picture. Or wait a year if the kanuma and drainage/aeration still looks fine and it still has room to grow in that pot.

But after the competition, nebari-wise, the roots you have selected as your nebari won't really fatten up unless you allow the tree to grow out like crazy. So you would put it in an larger size training pot once more, to develop it further. Those top roots won't fatten up unless they are supporting a large root system, significantly larger than the roots needed to keep it alive in a bonsai pot. The tree will also create new roots that are not part of your nebari flare. And those will get fatter as well. So after 2 to 3 years, you have to go in and prune those downward-facing roots away. The stronger you want the nebari to be, the more of these cycles you need.

If you keep it in a bonsai pot, the change you will see is more that it will look older. But your trunk and nebari won't get significantly fatter/stronger as there is always a limit to how much it can grow, dictated by the size of the pot. Of course, you can go for a slightly larger pot every repot. But this is still a slower process compared to how azalea bonsai are normally grown in Japan.

Those impressive azalea bonsai you see, they are grown in raised beds of kanuma covered by a polytunnel. Inside those, they likely have twice the growing season as we in the UK-western Europe. And they put them there, starting as a wired up whip, for 10-25 years, depending on the desired result (meika tree or actual bonsai). So when you are thinking bonsai and nebari, and thinking about your plant right now, that's something to keep in mind.
 
Last edited:
I kind of edited my post to clarify. With a long term goal in mind, and the competition being secondary, I would do it like this.

Late August-early September 2020:
Get it out of the nursery pot, remove the bottom 1/5th of the roots if it is really pot-bound and that part is soggy.
Rake open the root ball. Likely, the surface will be covered with roots trying to find a way out of the pot. Open those up. Use a chopstick or something similar. You will tear out some pieces of the root system, but that is fine. It has plenty. It looks like you already raked away the survace of the root ball. Often, there is a lot of leaves, or moss, or the nursery uses mulch.
If you can wash-power blast out some of that old soil. You aren't bare rooting it, but sometimes you can at least clean up some roots by washing them with water, depending on how many roots there are.
Pot it in a terracotta training pot with 50% kanuma, 50% coarse peat/potting soil. I don't why it was to go in a bonsai pot right away. The display is in 2025. You want results in terms of growth for a couple of years.

Then it should be growing a ton come spring 2021. Which is what you want. But at some point you want to go in and prune a tiny bit, to prevent reverse taper, or prevent branches that will be needed for the final design that are 5 shoots from one node. So reduce to two shoots two leaves, kind of pruning. You want to prune as little as possible because you already pruned heavily in 2020 and you will be pruning heavily again in 2022.

Then spring 2022, assuming it has been healthy and growing a lot in 2021, you can cut back aggressively, keeping in mind a final design. And then cut off the lower 2/3rd of the root ball. Then you wash out as much of the soil. Then go in with a chopstick and try to get inbetween the roots as much as possible and remove stuff. Then observe the top of the roots and see which top roots need to be pruned away. And you repot it, maybe now in 100% kanuma and a bonsai pot, with the root flare you like. The roots then will look like the picture in Woocash's thread. Not a lot of roots, but also not a lot of leaves, so that's fine.

Then come spring 2025, it probably need another repot. You could then decide on your final and smaller bonsai pot. But since you want to take your display picture, you won't do a lot of root pruning. Or you can repot after you take your display picture. Or wait a year if the kanuma and drainage/aeration still looks fine and it still has room to grow in that pot.

But after the competition, nebari-wise, the roots you have selected as your nebari won't really fatten up unless you allow the tree to grow out like crazy. So you would put it in an larger size training pot once more, to develop it further. Those top roots won't fatten up unless they are supporting a large root system, significantly larger than the roots needed to keep it alive in a bonsai pot. The tree will also create new roots that are not part of your nebari flare. And those will get fatter as well. So after 2 to 3 years, you have to go in and prune those downward-facing roots away. The stronger you want the nebari to be, the more of these cycles you need.

If you keep it in a bonsai pot, the change you will see is more that it will look older. But your trunk and nebari won't get significantly fatter/stronger as there is always a limit to how much it can grow, dictated by the size of the pot. Of course, you can go for a slightly larger pot every repot. But this is still a slower process compared to how azalea bonsai are normally grown in Japan.

Those impressive azalea bonsai you see, they are grown in raised beds of kanuma covered by a polytunnel. Inside those, they likely have twice the growing season as we in the UK-western Europe. And they put them there, starting as a wired up whip, for 10-25 years, depending on the desired result (meika tree or actual bonsai). So when you are thinking bonsai and nebari, and thinking about your plant right now, that's something to keep in mind.

This is great - I've learned a lot here, thank you for your detailed responses! It sounds like a good plan. Great to properly understand how nebari works, wasn't something I'd thought about properly. You've really helped me out there 👍
 
@Clorgan did your pot come in? How's the tree doing?

So I thought I'd ordered the pot, but it hasn't arrived and I haven't had a confirmation email so I can't have 😂😂

Lots of growth, still some questionable colours on them though? Attached lots of photos, hopefully you'll see what I mean
 

Attachments

  • 20200702_155341.jpg
    20200702_155341.jpg
    231.7 KB · Views: 9
  • 20200702_155419.jpg
    20200702_155419.jpg
    127.2 KB · Views: 8
  • 20200702_155406.jpg
    20200702_155406.jpg
    193.3 KB · Views: 5
  • 20200702_155404.jpg
    20200702_155404.jpg
    145 KB · Views: 6
  • 20200702_155357.jpg
    20200702_155357.jpg
    278.3 KB · Views: 6
  • 20200702_155352.jpg
    20200702_155352.jpg
    179.4 KB · Views: 6
  • 20200702_155348.jpg
    20200702_155348.jpg
    161.2 KB · Views: 7
  • 20200702_155341.jpg
    20200702_155341.jpg
    231.7 KB · Views: 14
So I thought I'd ordered the pot, but it hasn't arrived and I haven't had a confirmation email so I can't have 😂😂

Lots of growth, still some questionable colours on them though? Attached lots of photos, hopefully you'll see what I mean
Looking good so far!
 
This pot arrived, could potentially use for the azalea... But it's a good few years away from final pot so I'll probably end up putting something else in it!
 

Attachments

  • 20200703_121705.jpg
    20200703_121705.jpg
    110.6 KB · Views: 15
  • 20200703_121649.jpg
    20200703_121649.jpg
    148.3 KB · Views: 15
  • 20200703_121639.jpg
    20200703_121639.jpg
    120.5 KB · Views: 23
I think my azalea will be on a similar repotting schedule since it's also in a nursery pot and likely pretty root-bound at the moment. So thanks, @Harunobu for a timeline to shoot for!
 
Seems to be enjoying the weather! Good mix of rain and sun here in the Midlands! Kanuma has arrived, ready for late summer/early autumn repot
 

Attachments

  • 20200711_130202.jpg
    20200711_130202.jpg
    254.7 KB · Views: 10
  • 20200711_130139.jpg
    20200711_130139.jpg
    289.5 KB · Views: 14
You might consider removing the primary tip when it extends about an inch. That will keep that twig short.
 
Back
Top Bottom