Chinese elm - slow growth

[BonPiotr]

Hey,
after last years advices from people on Bonsai Nut my chinese elm is not on brink of death anymore Nonetheless i see that it grows much slower than people say on YouTube and blog posts. Here's a whole story:
- Exactly 1 year ago I have bought cheap commercial chinese elm from bonsai nursery. It was struggling, droping leaves with yellow and few black spots and was in bad soil, which caused root rot.

- After few advices I have repotted it to akadama/pumice/lava mix in summer. It was bold decision, but overall everything came back to normal

- It woke first from dormancy in march and bursted with leaves everywhere. I have also started using Biogold solid organic fertilizer instead of liquid Biogold Vital.

- But after new leaves hardened in the end of april, they started to drop again with yellow spots and black spots on them. After few rounds of fungicide it stopped. I think it was remnants of last years disease. After it stopped in second half of may i have decided to prune few things. Nothing super major - quarter of ugly, dying at the tip branch, few spots where growth created stub with multiple small branches growing upwards and straight into the trunk and few places massively congested with leaves.

- I was counting on burst of new growth, but it never came really. In one month few branches has growth to 3-4 nodes, which I have pruned back to 1-2. In the meantime i have started using another organic fertilizer 8-4-5, which is praised in my country by bonsai professionals. I have also started using Superthrive every week (1ml/3l dose as on the label). It's after 2 doses as my other trees which responded with faster growth and better color of foliage.

Long story short i think it should grow faster. I saw many YouTube (maybe it's magic of YouTube), where chinese elms after such pruning reacted with few centimeters of growth from everywhere after a month. Overall i think it's healthy, but a little stagnant. I have also searched for aphids and spider mites with my eyes and white paper test from Bonsai Mirai video, everything seems clean of pests. Please tell me I'm overreacting and everything is fine with my "firstborn" .

 

[leatherback]

Long story short i think it should grow faster. I saw many YouTube (maybe it's magic of YouTube), where chinese elms after such pruning reacted with few centimeters of growth from everywhere after a month.

Nope. It is something else entirely

Overall i think it's healthy

You think so, but the tree is telling you it is not back to health:

my chinese elm is not on brink of death anymore

Exactly 1 year ago [...] It was struggling, droping leaves with yellow and few black spots and was in bad soil

I have repotted it [..] in summer

in the end of april, they started to drop again with yellow spots and black spots

i have decided to prune few things. [..]quarter of ugly, dying at the tip branch, few spots where growth created stub with multiple small branches growing upwards and straight into the trunk and few places massively congested with leaves.

branches has growth to 3-4 nodes, which I have pruned back to 1-2

If you read this above, you have not had a single good flush of growth after you had massive problems.
Every time the tree invests in new solar panels, you come in and cause damage to the plant by cutting a stem, and you rob the tree of its investment. Slowly you are draining the reserves.

Leave the tree alone for a season. Do not tinker. Let it grow. Do not prune anything else off, and reduce your overall fertilizer regime. Focus on watering properly and start fertilizer again once your branches are pushing growth. Then once you have 4-6 inches of new growth on all branches, your tree is back to health and you can start consider a prune. Taking time for recovery results in faster recovery.

 

[BonPiotr]

Nope. It is something else entirely


You think so, but the tree is telling you it is not back to health:








If you read this above, you have not had a single good flush of growth after you had massive problems.
Every time the tree invests in new solar panels, you come in and cause damage to the plant by cutting a stem, and you rob the tree of its investment. Slowly you are draining the reserves.

Leave the tree alone for a season. Do not tinker. Let it grow. Do not prune anything else off, and reduce your overall fertilizer regime. Focus on watering properly and start fertilizer again once your branches are pushing growth. Then once you have 4-6 inches of new growth on all branches, your tree is back to health and you can start consider a prune. Taking time for recovery results in faster recovery.

Thanks for advice I thought it might be the case, that i’m rushing things. By cut back on fertilizer you mean lower the dose to 1/3-1/2 or stop it completely for now?

 

[leatherback]

Thanks for advice I thought it might be the case, that i’m rushing things. By cut back on fertilizer you mean lower the dose to 1/3-1/2 or stop it completely for now?

I would not fertilize.

 

[River's Edge]

In addition to the above sound advice from leatherback I would keep an eye on the plant for signs that fungal disease is returning. Watch for the black spots.
Monitor your watering to ensure proper care, and give the tree time to repair and recover. When it is real bushy and healthy than you can consider beginning development.

 

[BonPiotr]

In addition to the above sound advice from leatherback I would keep an eye on the plant for signs that fungal disease is returning. Watch for the black spots.
Monitor your watering to ensure proper care, and give the tree time to repair and recover. When it is real bushy and healthy than you can consider beginning development.

I watch it everyday There is in fact few yellow spots, but I think these are the places where fungus attacked and stopped after the treatment. I need to get hands on some fungicide, which has preventative effect in addition to fighting with fungus that is already active and use it late winter. I've heard that lime sulphur has that effect in weak solution, but i would prefer something that won't kill my tree if dosage is a little bit off. If you know something like that I would be glad to hear about such product (maybe it isn't banned yet in Europe as many other pesticides and fungicides people from US use and recommend).

TBH it was really bushy at the beginning of may, when I have pruned it. According to your advices, I guess it was still not good time to do this, because I should let it grow freely to replenish energy. Anyway I have removed fertilizer baskets and will watch my elm carefully

 

[leatherback]

TBH it was really bushy at the beginning of may, when I have pruned it.

You mentioned you pruned it when there were 4 leaves, back to 2.
4 leaves is not bushy. Think, 20 leaves per branch of new growth, 8 inch extensions

 

[River's Edge]

TBH it was really bushy

Healthy chines elm should have lots of dark green leaves, plus evidence of new lighter green new shoots extending, No evidence of fungal or insect issues. Here is an example of a healthy young Chinese elm for reference. ( Seiju cultivar) Grown from cutting 2017. Just developing material for Bonsai. Trunk size approximately 4 cm.
Free draining soil and careful watering routine should clear fungal issue as health returns.

 

[BobbyLane]

Speaking of bushy, this is how bushy i'll often let trees get before cutting back
https://flic.kr/p/2gboa7x
When you let the tree build up this amount of energy, it will reward you with new buds in all sorts of places

 

[BobbyLane]

Training pot it was in previously allowed it to build up a strong root system...I was talking about training pots in another thread, they dont have to be non bonsai pots, they can be nice pots that are a little bit oversized....

 

[BonPiotr]

Thanks @River's Edge, thanks @BobbyLane. Now I know for sure what bushy means I hope I will see something like this someday

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Thanks @River's Edge, thanks @BobbyLane. Now I know for sure what bushy means I hope I will see something like this someday

Remember that in order to have strong branch growth, you must have strong root growth (in general). If you give roots room to grow, the tree will respond with strong branch and foliage growth. By putting a tree in a pot, we are constraining root growth, and therefore constraining branch growth. If you see the last photo from @BobbyLane , you can see that he planted his elm in a pot that was much too big... while also being shallow. He was allowing the tree to run long roots and stimulate growth, but because the pot was shallow the roots were spreading instead of shooting down into the ground. Once you develop a tree in a pot like this, it is much easier to lift the tree, trim the roots, and move it into a smaller pot. Once you do so, the rate of growth will slow significantly.

 

[BonPiotr]

Remember that in order to have strong branch growth, you must have strong root growth (in general). If you give roots room to grow, the tree will respond with strong branch and foliage growth. By putting a tree in a pot, we are constraining root growth, and therefore constraining branch growth. If you see the last photo from @BobbyLane , you can see that he planted his elm in a pot that was much too big... while also being shallow. He was allowing the tree to run long roots and stimulate growth, but because the pot was shallow the roots were spreading instead of shooting down into the ground. Once you develop a tree in a pot like this, it is much easier to lift the tree, trim the roots, and move it into a smaller pot. Once you do so, the rate of growth will slow significantly.

Yeah, I’m thinking about it, but I didnt want to write about this, because there’s a lot of time until i can do this safely. I don’t know if I should do such repot/slip-pot next spring. On the one hand akadama in my mix isn’t in the best possible condition right now. It hasn’t broke down completely, but i observe that flow isn’t instant as on fresh one, it takes 2-3 seconds to go, so maybe it is good idea to do this anyway. On the other, repot could be another thing that will further deplete tree’s energy.

Probably repoting/slippotting with close to none root work is the way to go in this case. What do you think?

 

[Digger]

Hey,
after last years advices from people on Bonsai Nut my chinese elm is not on brink of death anymore Nonetheless i see that it grows much slower than people say on YouTube and blog posts. Here's a whole story:
- Exactly 1 year ago I have bought cheap commercial chinese elm from bonsai nursery. It was struggling, droping leaves with yellow and few black spots and was in bad soil, which caused root rot.
View attachment 497658
- After few advices I have repotted it to akadama/pumice/lava mix in summer. It was bold decision, but overall everything came back to normal
View attachment 497659
- It woke first from dormancy in march and bursted with leaves everywhere. I have also started using Biogold solid organic fertilizer instead of liquid Biogold Vital.
View attachment 497660
- But after new leaves hardened in the end of april, they started to drop again with yellow spots and black spots on them. After few rounds of fungicide it stopped. I think it was remnants of last years disease. After it stopped in second half of may i have decided to prune few things. Nothing super major - quarter of ugly, dying at the tip branch, few spots where growth created stub with multiple small branches growing upwards and straight into the trunk and few places massively congested with leaves.
View attachment 497661
- I was counting on burst of new growth, but it never came really. In one month few branches has growth to 3-4 nodes, which I have pruned back to 1-2. In the meantime i have started using another organic fertilizer 8-4-5, which is praised in my country by bonsai professionals. I have also started using Superthrive every week (1ml/3l dose as on the label). It's after 2 doses as my other trees which responded with faster growth and better color of foliage.
View attachment 497662
Long story short i think it should grow faster. I saw many YouTube (maybe it's magic of YouTube), where chinese elms after such pruning reacted with few centimeters of growth from everywhere after a month. Overall i think it's healthy, but a little stagnant. I have also searched for aphids and spider mites with my eyes and white paper test from Bonsai Mirai video, everything seems clean of pests. Please tell me I'm overreacting and everything is fine with my "firstborn" .

When I have a tree that is just not doing well in spite of my care, I give it a vacation in the flower bed for a season or two. Some times nature knows best. One time my spruce was not doing well during a hot summer so I dunked it in a bucket of water. Almost immediately a horde of crane fly larvae came crawling to the surface, so check your roots.

 

[Paradox]

Speaking of bushy, this is how bushy i'll often let trees get before cutting back
https://flic.kr/p/2gboa7x
When you let the tree build up this amount of energy, it will reward you with new buds in all sorts of places

I think mine needs a haircut

 

[BonPiotr]

I have little update. Tree seems to send new growth from many places. I have stopped fertilizing immediately after advice. Almost everything seems ok, but there’s BUT.

I’m a little bit concerned about leaves from pictures (yellow one with weird spot and black spot on one right next to it and this one with black line) is it return of fungal infection or maybe mites?



I have few things in my equipment for possible treatment, which i bought some time ago:
Fungicide Scorpion 325 SC (azoxystrobin + difeconazole)

Fungicide based on copper oxychloride

Insecticide Neemazal (based on 1% azadirachtin found in neem)

Fungicide Switch 62,5 WG (ciprodinil + fludioxonil - i have used it few times already on that elm)

Insecticide Mospilan 20 SP (acetamiprid)

Should I use something from this list as prevention?

 

[leatherback]

Leave the tree alone for a season. Do not tinker. Let it grow.

Leaves get old.
A FEW leaves here and there is no issue. If you have widespread yellowing it is a different story.
New growth looks happy enough.

I would just let it do its thing for a bit.

 

[BobbyLane]

Thats not black spot. Just leave it to grow out. a yellow leaf here n there is nothing. Get some more trees

 

[BonPiotr]

Thanks @BobbyLane and @leatherback for reassuring reply I have other trees too - fuji cherry, beech group, sabina juniper and berberis. Berberis has its own issues, because previous owner neglected few things such as soil mix and rotting trunk, but the rest are happy little trees in prebonsai or material stage New trees will come in late winter, because I want to get my first yamadori

 

[AJL]

I have little update. Tree seems to send new growth from many places. I have stopped fertilizing immediately after advice. Almost everything seems ok, but there’s BUT.

I’m a little bit concerned about leaves from pictures (yellow one with weird spot and black spot on one right next to it and this one with black line) is it return of fungal infection or maybe mites?

View attachment 498794View attachment 498795

I have few things in my equipment for possible treatment, which i bought some time ago:
Fungicide Scorpion 325 SC (azoxystrobin + difeconazole)

Fungicide based on copper oxychloride

Insecticide Neemazal (based on 1% azadirachtin found in neem)

Fungicide Switch 62,5 WG (ciprodinil + fludioxonil - i have used it few times already on that elm)

Insecticide Mospilan 20 SP (acetamiprid)

Should I use something from this list as prevention?

You really shouldnt need to resort to pesticide use at this stage.
Chinese elm is a good beginners tree because it is normally so easy to care for.
You are in danger of killing it with "kindness"!!
You have received some very sound advice already on here so I suggest you leave the poor thing alone to recover and get some more trees to practice on!!