Call me crazy... Turface, hard water, and ph

[vaibatron]

As many of you may know, there has been a hot debate on the effectiveness of turface as a potting medium for bonsai. With so many mixed reviews I thought I would add my 2 cents and pose a few more questions.

To preface the meat and potatoes of this post, I have tested my batch of turface and found it to be fairly acidic (near 5.6-5.8 pH). From what I gather, this is not unusual. Turface has a tested pH ranging from 4.5-7.5. In conjunction, I have also tested my water and it consistently shows a reading between 7.5 and 8.2. I have since potted 3 Catlin elms, 3 privets in equal parts turface, fur bark, lava rock, and haydite. I have also potted 2 boxwood, 3 parsonii, 1 procumbens, and 1 RMJ in 1/2 turface 1/4 fur bark 1/4 grit. All of which have put on exceptional growth this season.


Now here's where I get a little crazy....
I would like to get some opinions pertaining to the effect of hard water on the use of turface. My novice scientific mind is inclined to believe that hard water acts to partially, if not fully neutralize the potted ecosystem's ph. Could hard water, over time, raise the pH of a potted ecosystem to a more suitable environment for non acid loving species such as ficus, ligustrum, or ulmus? Can more acid soil mixtures help prevent salt buildups when using hard water? Does the somewhat acidic nature of junipers lend itself to a medium with lower ph? If so, does hard water change the requirements of certain micros in a feeding regiment?

I am well aware one easy way to solve this problem would be to buy a rainbarrel and to use other potting mediums that require less alchemy, but this post is more about experimentation!

 

[coh]

If you haven't seen them, you might be interested the series of articles by Bill Argo on this subject. He didn't specifically look at turface, but he does discuss how the water quality (alkalinity in particular) and type of fertilizer affect the pH of the container environment. The take home message is that yes, using water with high alkalinity can offset/neutralize a mix that naturally tends to be acidic. How well that might work in turface is another matter.

Articles are here:

https://firstrays.com/free-informat...ilizer-information/primer-on-plant-nutrition/

 

[M. Frary]

How ya doin' crazy.

 

[GrimLore]

You mentioned all of the plants are doing well and putting on growth like crazy... That tells me everything is ok right now. I moved to a new house a few months ago and put in a whole house 2 stage canister filter system. The reason we did that is that the water smelled bad and had so much chlorine in it you could not drink it. Now that is ok to drink it is what all the plants get(got that advice from Walter Pall)... What I am trying to get at is if things are working, don't try to fix them

Grimmy

 

[Vance Wood]

I have been using Turface (aka calcined clay) in differing grits, manufacturers, and firing temperatures for many years. The way some people talk, the idea forwarded is that Turface is the basic kiss of death for your trees?! This is rubbish.

Would I choose Pumice over Turface? Yes; if the availability was comparable. That does not mean that Turface is bad. Sometimes some guy that grows bonsai somewhere discovers a product or element that is available to them at low to no cost, and all of a sudden it makes everything else seem like dog doo-doo. Sometime someone decides to sell this product and Turface becomes really really really bad. I am not saying that is what's happening just that it is an easy scenario to imagine. Let's put it this way. I have been using Turface for over forty years.

 

[coh]

I have been using Turface (aka calcined clay) in differing grits, manufacturers, and firing temperatures for many years. The way some people talk, the idea forwarded is that Turface is the basic kiss of death for your trees?! This is rubbish.

Would I choose Pumice over Turface? Yes; if the availability was comparable. That does not mean that Turface is bad. Sometimes some guy that grows bonsai somewhere discovers a product or element that is available to them at low to no cost, and all of a sudden it makes everything else seem like dog doo-doo. Sometime someone decides to sell this product and Turface becomes really really really bad. I am not saying that is what's happening just that it is an easy scenario to imagine. Let's put it this way. I have been using Turface for over forty years.

You and others. We've been through this so many times!

 

[GrimLore]

It is why I referenced water instead of Turface as I know works for MANY people. coh mentioned the same... I use Pumice because it is readily available(I can see the Agway pole barn they store it in from the kitchen window). I don't use Turface but after reading miles of threads on it my "opinion" is that it comes in different grades like fired pottery at that could account for it breaking down to mush for some people. I was just suggesting to look at the tap rather then the Turface first...

Grimmy

 

[GO-OK]

Alkalinity and ph are not the same thing. Alkalinity is the ability to buffer acids...or it's ability to hold its ph level constant.

Hard water may not be alkaline. A ph test will not reveal your alkalinity. High ph with high alkalinity is bad news. You would know by now if it was an issue I am certain.

If you are worried get some rain barrels, but as others have said, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

By the way, I do agree that hard water can be a problem regardless of soil. Particularly when it gets very hot and watering needs increase. Chlorosis can be an issue as calcium tends to impact ability to absorb other micros. I fertilize with little cottonseed meal here and there and do an alfalfa + seaweed compost tea with a dab of iron here and there. Nursery stock gets a TBSP of composted chicken manure every 3 weeks or so. Easy and costs me about $20/year.


If anyone needs pumice PM me, I have shohin sized drystall and will beat ebay prices in flat rate boxes by $1 . I won't sift or wash it, but my experience with drystall is that sifting and washing effects the weight and not the volume. Which is a good thing.

 

[0soyoung]

Alkalinity and ph are not the same thing. Alkalinity is the ability to buffer acids...or it's ability to hold its ph level constant.

Alkalinity = pH > 7.0
Acidic = pH < 7.0

For example sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is an alkalai (it is alkaline) and a strong base: pH>7.0.
Sulfuric acid (H2SO3) is a strong acid pH<7.0.
Acids can neutralize bases and vice versa - this is not buffering.

 

[markyscott]

Alkalinity = pH > 7.0
Acidic = pH < 7.0

For example sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is an alkalai (it is alkaline) and a strong base: pH>7.0.
Sulfuric acid (H2SO3) is a strong acid pH<7.0.
Acids can neutralize bases and vice versa - this is not buffering.

pH > 7 is alkaline or basic. But alkaline and alkalinity aren't the same thing. Alkalinity is a measure of the waters ability to neutralize an acid. If I were in charge if naming things, I would have named them something different.

S

 

[Neli]

pH > 7 is alkaline or basic. But alkaline and alkalinity aren't the same thing. Alkalinity is a measure of the waters ability to neutralize an acid. If I were in charge if naming things, I would have named them something different.

S

Very correct.

this should read:
Alkalinity = pH > 7.0
Acidic = pH < 7.0

Alkaline = pH > 7.0
Acidic = pH < 7.0

 

[coh]

Anyone who doesn't understand the concept that pH and alkalinity measure very different things should try reading through the articles I linked in my previous post on the subject. pH alone provides a very incomplete assessment (perhaps even misleading) of water quality as it relates to plant growth.

That said...I think the overwhelming evidence is that for most of us who use a surface water based (i.e. lake, reservoir) municipal water system, we don't have to worry too much about the water...it's probably good enough for most plants. If your source is a well, it could be a very different story. Regardless, a complete water test only costs about $80 or so and can put the issue to rest!

Chris

 

[Poink88]

Anyone who doesn't understand the concept that pH and alkalinity measure very different things should try reading through the articles I linked in my previous post on the subject. pH alone provides a very incomplete assessment (perhaps even misleading) of water quality as it relates to plant growth.

That said...I think the overwhelming evidence is that for most of us who use a surface water based (i.e. lake, reservoir) municipal water system, we don't have to worry too much about the water...it's probably good enough for most plants. If your source is a well, it could be a very different story. Regardless, a complete water test only costs about $80 or so and can put the issue to rest!

Chris

City of Austin have water quality test results posted online every month. Maybe your locale have something similar.
http://www.austintexas.gov/department/water-quality-reports-major-industrial-users

What's in the water...
http://www.austintexas.gov/page/whats-in-the-water

A snippet from the April 2014 report...

 

[Bonsai Nut]

pH > 7 is alkaline or basic. But alkaline and alkalinity aren't the same thing.

pH > 7 is basic. Period. Alkalinity is not directly related to the pH of a substance. You can have a mildly or strongly basic solution with the same alkalinity. You can have a two solutions with the same pH that have very different alkalinities. All alkaline substances ARE bases, but to think of them in terms of pH is apples and oranges.

An analogy I use is the ability of a body of water to absorb heat. You can have a body of water that can be any temperature between 32 and 212. But the degree to which the water will "buffer" heat is based on the volume of water. Just knowing the starting temperature of the water tells you little about how readily it will "buffer" heat.

 

[vaibatron]

Thank you all for the wonderful feedback. As I said, this is my experiment with Turface and hard water. All of the trees potted late last season and early this season are doing well, with exception to one of my dear elms. I suspect a black spot infection Never had this problem with any of my trees, even in the deceased brothers and sisters. Help!