Bristlecone pine?

[Anonymous User]

Maybe what I call back budding is different than others? What I have seen posted here is growth coming from branch junctions only, these are basically worthless and should be removed unless replacing the branch is planned, other than that, they are a waste of resources.

Back budding to me is buds forming further back on the branches and lower on the trunk, forming where no growth previously was.



Will

 

[grouper52]

Maybe what I call back budding is different than others? What I have seen posted here is growth coming from branch junctions only, these are basically worthless and should be removed unless replacing the branch is planned, other than that, they are a waste of resources.

Back budding to me is buds forming further back on the branches and lower on the trunk, forming where no growth previously was.



Will

My little experiment is doing lots of actual back-budding - will try to get some pix posted if I can ever get home from work while there is still light left in this increasingly gloomy Pacific Northwest winter.

I spoke just now on the phone with Ken at Bonsai Northwest, who recalled clearly that little shohin I mentioned above. He admitted it was an impressive specimen for a Bristlecone, and was styled from nursery stock but he couldn't recall how long in training, but he also continues to maintain that generally they are difficult to work with due to "slow response to manipulations", and he recommends sticking with trustier species like JBPs.

 

[JasonG]

Maybe what I call back budding is different than others? What I have seen posted here is growth coming from branch junctions only, these are basically worthless and should be removed unless replacing the branch is planned, other than that, they are a waste of resources.

Back budding to me is buds forming further back on the branches and lower on the trunk, forming where no growth previously was.



Will

Hi WIll,

I circled some buds that are not in the branch junctions.... And this was only 1 part of the tree that has buds where there was no branches. Like Rich said, the pictures are crappy and this will be a nice little bristlecone with 2 beers and 30 minutes worth of work

Like you I have the same feelings on back budding....

Thanks, Jason

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I'll have to post some other pics. I have budding all over the place. Some of the buds are at branch junctions while others are on branches and others are simply in a vacant spot of the trunk - exactly what I want when I am trying to replace a branch or correct a vacancy in the design. I'll let you know next year how the tree responds to initial work.

 

[Anonymous User]

I stand corrected, there is actual back budding there. Thanks!


Will

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I stand corrected, there is actual back budding there. Thanks!

Some more bud photos to reinforce Jason. There is a lot of budding on this tree and I don't see a lot of missing inner needles indicating that anyone pulled needles or pushed ramification. Certainly no one has done so in the last two years.

On this one branch alone I counted 12 buds in the middle section.

Inner buds on old bark on a lower branch. You can see a relatively recent branch cut that looks about a year old.

 

[grouper52]

B'Nut, that's about the same as or even perhaps better than what I would have posted, so I'll forego posting pix.

The only thing I'd have to show that's even more supportive than that is several buds about 2/5-3/5 of the way up the 5" stump where I trunk-chopped below a whorl - in my limited experience and book learning this kind of new budding on a branch or trunk that's been chopped distal to any remaining foliage is unheard of in pines, especially on such old wood as the main trunk, and really impressed me, as did all the other back budding, that this tree is really something different and very workable in that way.

 

[Attila Soos]

Atilla, send me an email if you want to chat about it....

Jason, I sent you a mail.

The prolific budding is a huge asset of this species.
The problem is still the fact that the effect of any bonsai training is very slow, so it really matters what kind of material you start with. With black pine, you can create any feature from scratch. With bristlecone, you better start with something that is already there, or it will take a lifetime.

 

[grouper52]

The problem is still the fact that the effect of any bonsai training is very slow, so it really matters what kind of material you start with. With black pine, you can create any feature from scratch. With bristlecone, you better start with something that is already there, or it will take a lifetime.

Having learned as a "Child of the 60's" (yuck!) to always "question authority" (yuck!!), I guess I can't help but wonder about the slow pace of training in this species, especially when I see suggestions that it may not be the case. What I'm talking about is as follows.

The people who tell us these trees are slow to develop/train are also the same people who tell us to raise them in dry conditions that simulate their natural environment. Then, we see trees sold in regular nurseries, raised by regular nurserymen who probably take no pains at all to keep them in dry, harsh desert-like conditions, and they seem to grow about 4-6" a year, and grow even faster if we look at landscaping specimens around town planted in the ground. This tells me that they CAN grow in harsh climates, but that they will THRIVE in better conditions. That, plus the incredible back budding capabilities make me think that development/training may only be slow if one erroneously tries to simulate desert conditions, and that they may actually develop much more rapidly with generous watering and fertilizing.

Any thoughts about this? This line of reasoning was part of the reason I bought one last year to experiment with, and I'll keep folks posted as it progresses through the next few years.

 

[Attila Soos]

Any thoughts about this? This line of reasoning was part of the reason I bought one last year to experiment with, and I'll keep folks posted as it progresses through the next few years.

No, your reasoning sounds logical, and if you've seen bristlecones growing so fast in nursery conditions, then that's good news.

When I said that this is a "slow" species, I based that solely on my personal experience (not on the opinion of any other person). I have a young bristlecone growing in a nursery pot, and, although it looks to be very healthy, it is almost the same size as it was 3 years ago. I grow it in a very porous medium and water it like the rest of my pines, so it is not too dry, but I don't want to overwater. But that thing grows just as slowly as my Kingsville boxwood.

Maybe it is a little too hot here in L.A. (or not cold enough in the winter), but at this pace, it will take forever even to create a shohin.

 

[grouper52]

No, your reasoning sounds logical, and if you've seen bristlecones growing so fast in nursery conditions, then that's good news.

When I said that this is a "slow" species, I based that solely on my personal experience (not on the opinion of any other person). I have a young bristlecone growing in a nursery pot, and, although it looks to be very healthy, it is almost the same size as it was 3 years ago. I grow it in a very porous medium and water it like the rest of my pines, so it is not too dry, but I don't want to overwater. But that thing grows just as slowly as my Kingsville boxwood.

Maybe it is a little too hot here in L.A. (or not cold enough in the winter), but at this pace, it will take forever even to create a shohin.

That's good info to have - I'm certainly aware that my theory may be wrong, but I'm just hoping it is not. I may put my little guy in the ground in my pine garden with other "desert" varieties, and see if he doesn't take off in growth over the next few years.

 

[Bill S]

Can't say as I have experiance w/ these, but often trees will take some time growing roots before they put on a top, especially if they are from an arid area. Could also be like some Junipers that take 2-3 years to regain thier foliage vigor after root work.

 

[Attila Soos]

Can't say as I have experiance w/ these, but often trees will take some time growing roots before they put on a top, especially if they are from an arid area. Could also be like some Junipers that take 2-3 years to regain thier foliage vigor after root work.

This is a very important consideration, and great that you've brought it up. Some species need a few years of recovery before they really take off. And in my case, the little tree went from pot to ground and back to pot in a span of 3.5 or so years (due to the fact that I moved to a new house).

Since I've often heard that bristlecones love to be left alone, this may very well be the cause of the exceptionally slow growth.

 

[rlist]

With all this Bristlecone talk regarding growth rate, I decided to go look at mine to see how the internote lengths were. This tree is a fairly unremarkable tree, but was picked up because a) it was a Bristlecone and I wanted to learn more about them and b) it was $5. It came out of a landscape, was put in a 1 gallon pot full of mud and sat in a nursery for an unknown number of years. I got it last spring, bare rooted it, put it in a pond basket full of free draining mix, and left it alone. Today it is alive, and sort of well (see below).

The main trunk shows growth of about 2" per year for the past 5 + years. If once healthy I can get it to grow 2" each year, I think I will have a good shot at a shohin, but not much more than that...

I say sort of well because when I looked at the new buds I noticed they were dead and little holes were appearant. European Pine Shoot Moth larva were present, and I did find and kill one. So, we'll see how this guy recovers. I do not believe any of my other trees have been infected, though I will keep an eye out. Everything will get a treatment of one systemic or another this spring, so hopefully I'll get ahead of it and snuff it out before it is a real problem.

http://www.ent.orst.edu/urban/PDF Files/epsm.pdf

 

[onthefringe]

Hi folks,
I may be chiming in on this a little late after all the hub bub I've read in some of the other threads but in case anyones still around interested in this post....

I've been interested in a number of native conifer species from the US. and if you'd like some interesting reading about bristlecones and other species of western US origins check out Ronald Lanner's books. I think he's even got his own web site. He was a professor and is retired now but he's published a number of books on conifers.

His latest I've been reading The Bristlecone Book. He is a scientist first of all so he goes into great detail discribing these trees biologic mechanisms such as bristlecone pines don't show any signs of senescence. That may be the reason why they regularly bud back on old wood.

Another point discussed about their cultural requirments being the they are found as isolated sentinals high on icy mountain tops (sorry for the paraphasing) but they are also found through out the wood land setting so long as the get adequate sun light. They do not do well in shade.

In his book made for each other he mentions another reason why they are found frequently above 9000 ft . Apparently they are planted by pinion jays who fly from mountain top to mountain top caching and feeding off the bounty. Those seeds the birds forget become trees. The corvids hide them at altitude for a number of reasons besides they want to. It seems they don't have to worry so much about losing the food stores to pack rats and squirrels.

If I'm not mistaken he also mentions that needles may persist for as long as 23 years in idealic conditions.

In his words ,"the trees themselves are well built for the long haul."(the Bristlecone Book pg. 2)

Any way if you are interested in learing more about the biology of these trees and what they may be capable of you may want to check out his work. He also writes about Pinion Pine's and conifers of the western US.

Enjoy, onthefringe

 

[irene_b]

Thanks for the info on that book!
Sounds like I may need to add that to my Library.
Irene

 

[grouper52]

Great info, Onthefringe - thanks for posting that!

g52

 

[Attila Soos]

Great little book, I've got it myself.

 

[onthefringe]

Your welcome Irene b and G52,

I was a horticulture student before my interest in bonsai was sparked. I find myself reading stuff like that all the time for fun. I'm sure if I read it aloud in a busy public place I could put the masses to sleep, but I really dig it. No pun intended.

So it's just seems natural to me these days that when I am interested in starting a particular species for bonsai or gardening material I read as much as I can find about it then try my hand at it.

That can sometimes take the excitement out of it but it also keeps me from getting let down when I would normally fail at something because of climate or culture issues I didn't understand. For instance I would likely not try bristlecones or other similar species because they would not naturally flourish here. The summers here can be hot and humid. So like wise I dont grow tropicals because I think in either case if I wonder too far out of what would normally grow around here my efforts to keep them alive well and happy would have to increase too much for me to enjoy them.

There are plenty of people who enjoy the challenge and do well at it. Just not my thing. Don't get me wrong I'd love to try my hand at bristlecones but I think my wife would flip out if I mentioned I wanted to move to the sierra nevada's to grow bristlecone bonsai! As well she should.!!!


Attila Soos,
Do you grow bristlecones?

 

[Attila Soos]

Attila Soos,
Do you grow bristlecones?

I have a small one in a 2-gallon nursery pot for about 4 years now. Although the climate here in Los Angeles is far from the conditions offered by its natural habitat, it seems to be very healthy, except that it grows very slowly. So, I am looking for a larger specimen that can become bonsai in my lifetime.