Boundaries of “two insults in one season”

[Veebs]

I’m sure a lot of us have heard about how you shouldn’t do major root work AND major pruning in a single season.

I’m assuming we are all defining “season” as spring to dormancy, but I would assume if you did significant pruning in winter it would be pretty unwise still to go hacking roots in spring.

I have a favorite juniper I’ve been working on. Here’s a record of activities:
- June 2024 - Initial rough pruning (and an embarrassing styling I won’t show you)
- September 2024 - Finally found the line and removed “all that is not bonsai”, but not much wiring.
- January 2025 - Wired and styled and reduced foliage to sparse starter pads.

I’ve attached a photo record of all that.

Now this tree is pushing its first initial growth. I want to work the roots as it’s been growing in this container for probably 15 years, but I love this tree and don’t want to risk it.

What’s your advice? Am I right to hold off, or safe to proceed?

 

[RoadManDenDron]

Honestly I believe this is a lesson in priorities

The tree being in the container 15 years would have took priority for me when it had all the growth and foliage to encourage and power fresh root growth

And yes you're right about the timing being more about a year than a spring to winter thing

I have hard styled a couple pines towards end of last year, I won't repot them until next spring

 

[Veebs]

Honestly I believe this is a lesson in priorities

The tree being in the container 15 years would have took priority for me when it had all the growth and foliage to encourage and power fresh root growth

And yes you're right about the timing being more about a year than a spring to winter thing

I have hard styled a couple pines towards end of last year, I won't repot them until next spring

Yeah I watched a few good videos near the end of last year and got the impression that root remediation takes precedence, and I’ve started to take that approach with others since. I have several other nursery junipers that have only had the bare minimum of foliage reduced to make them manageable as I get their roots set from the start.

In these cases, how do you handle the challenge of asking the root system to handle the load of all that foliage? Do you focus on wind/light protection? It’s tough to know how to balance roots and foliage as it isn’t exactly math as “simple” as some ratio of root volume to foliar mass, as if that was even calculable.

I’ve built a shaded structure this year for that very purpose, but I still don’t have a good idea of what to do to protect things with fewer roots.

Actually, I think that’s a nuance. Is it fair to define root quantity as attachment points to the trunk + their branches, as opposed to simply root mass, which includes roots that extend for days? Because if so, I suppose cutting roots back to be much shorter more or less preserves the root mass as long as they haven’t been detached from the trunk, as opposed to a yamadori collection gone wrong where you have very few attachments remaining.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Wait for the juvenile foliage that's emerging now to transition into adult foliage, when that's the case the tree has stopped stressing and might be good for a repot.

I count seasons as growing seasons and dormant seasons, so that's a year since my only growing season is from summer till fall. The plants might have multiple growth spurts per year, but those are growth spurts, not full growing seasons. One insult per year, or one and a half, or two, but two is pushing it. If you want to be on the safe side, let it recover. Junipers with a lot of foliage have something to drop if things go bad, and that wouldn't kill the tree nor ruin your design. Junipers with just a little foliage, in a juvenile state at that, have nothing left to drop to preserve themselves, so if they go bad there's no recovery.

No matter the rules of insults and seasons or interpretations of those, the plant is pushing juvenile foliage. It is not in a steady state, it is actively recovering in response to heavy work.
You can get away with hundred of insults if the plant shows no negative response. You can have a plant die on you after half an insult if the plant is in a stressed state. Use that information instead, it's much safer and better for your ease of mind because you can actually see it. And honestly, it doesn't hurt to wait until next spring to prevent new juvenile foliage from emerging after that root work. If it has only just recovered from a heavy pruning, the signal might still be moderately active and require just a little push to give you more juvenile foliage. Juvenile foliage is not preferred in a finished looking tree.

Sometimes a year of waiting saves you two years of waiting.

 

[ZombieNick]

This is a general rule of thumb, tree health and environment will have a lot to do with what you can get away with. I have styled healthy junipers in winter and repotted the following spring with no issue, but my weather is mild and supports this (you should add your location).

Honestly I believe this is a lesson in priorities

The tree being in the container 15 years would have took priority for me when it had all the growth and foliage to encourage and power fresh root growth

This is the real issue. The tree wasn't healthy when you started working on it, so I wouldn't take anymore risks at this point.

In these cases, how do you handle the challenge of asking the root system to handle the load of all that foliage? Do you focus on wind/light protection? It’s tough to know how to balance roots and foliage as it isn’t exactly math as “simple” as some ratio of root volume to foliar mass, as if that was even calculable.

I’ve built a shaded structure this year for that very purpose, but I still don’t have a good idea of what to do to protect things with fewer roots.

Actually, I think that’s a nuance. Is it fair to define root quantity as attachment points to the trunk + their branches, as opposed to simply root mass, which includes roots that extend for days? Because if so, I suppose cutting roots back to be much shorter more or less preserves the root mass as long as they haven’t been detached from the trunk, as opposed to a yamadori collection gone wrong where you have very few attachments remaining.

When you are repotting you are trimming dead and long running roots (the ones that "extend for days") and you are keeping the fine feeder roots and hopefully encouraging more of this type of growth. I don't think you need to worry too much about balancing the foliage unless it is super overgrown, just work the roots as needed. Depending on your location and when you do the repotting, you may not need to shade it, but the concept is basically the same for any tree. With fewer roots the tree will take in less water, so the shade is to keep the tree from drying out until it produces more. The idea is to slow down transpiration, which is increased by heat/light intensity/wind/low humidity.

 

[pandacular]

One thing I hear quite a bit is that junipers thrive on keeping their momentum up. This plant does not have momentum.

 

[Veebs]

Wait for the juvenile foliage that's emerging now to transition into adult foliage, when that's the case the tree has stopped stressing and might be good for a repot.

I count seasons as growing seasons and dormant seasons, so that's a year since my only growing season is from summer till fall. The plants might have multiple growth spurts per year, but those are growth spurts, not full growing seasons. One insult per year, or one and a half, or two, but two is pushing it. If you want to be on the safe side, let it recover. Junipers with a lot of foliage have something to drop if things go bad, and that wouldn't kill the tree nor ruin your design. Junipers with just a little foliage, in a juvenile state at that, have nothing left to drop to preserve themselves, so if they go bad there's no recovery.

No matter the rules of insults and seasons or interpretations of those, the plant is pushing juvenile foliage. It is not in a steady state, it is actively recovering in response to heavy work.
You can get away with hundred of insults if the plant shows no negative response. You can have a plant die on you after half an insult if the plant is in a stressed state. Use that information instead, it's much safer and better for your ease of mind because you can actually see it. And honestly, it doesn't hurt to wait until next spring to prevent new juvenile foliage from emerging after that root work. If it has only just recovered from a heavy pruning, the signal might still be moderately active and require just a little push to give you more juvenile foliage. Juvenile foliage is not preferred in a finished looking tree.

Sometimes a year of waiting saves you two years of waiting.

Wow, I didn’t even take note of the fact that the foliage is juvenile. I just saw it as new growth. Embarrassing. I think it’s a parsonii, FYI.

Thanks for the great advice.

 

[Veebs]

This is a general rule of thumb, tree health and environment will have a lot to do with what you can get away with. I have styled healthy junipers in winter and repotted the following spring with no issue, but my weather is mild and supports this (you should add your location).



This is the real issue. The tree wasn't healthy when you started working on it, so I wouldn't take anymore risks at this point.



When you are repotting you are trimming dead and long running roots (the ones that "extend for days") and you are keeping the fine feeder roots and hopefully encouraging more of this type of growth. I don't think you need to worry too much about balancing the foliage unless it is super overgrown, just work the roots as needed. Depending on your location and when you do the repotting, you may not need to shade it, but the concept is basically the same for any tree. With fewer roots the tree will take in less water, so the shade is to keep the tree from drying out until it produces more. The idea is to slow down transpiration, which is increased by heat/light intensity/wind/low humidity.

Thanks for the reminder about location. I’m in coastal North Carolina near Wilmington.

Good advice, thank you.

 

[BrianBay9]

Two insults..."Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries" Any season you want.