Bonsai measurements?

[Seedlng]

Ive been into and reading about bonsai for several decades and something has me puzzled.
With all the solid info we have on growing bonsai, why in all these years have I not been able to find step by step grow guides for speciffic species? No guesswork or a lot of research needed just follow the step by step instructions with your tree and it will become a decent bonsai in time.

Not an in depth book or anything, juat the basics (eg.trident maple start to finish)

For any tree I attempt I spend countless hours putting together my own plan based on snippets I find here and there.
I do enjoy all the research but honestly im not made of time.

Tbh I could just be really bad at searching.

Do such grow guides exist and if not why?

Anyone point me in the direction?

The other bit of info that doesnt seem to exist is a guide to measurements...
I do find random bits here and there on various pages about what lengths you should cut branches and trunks etc to achieve your desired finished hights and thicknesses... But why is there no complete sample guide of the various measurements per species?

 

[Forsoothe!]

All you have to do is to look through any thread here or elsewhere and see the divergent opinions on everything and the vicious arguments that ensue about the details, great and small. IMHO, by the time someone achieves enough gravitas to do such a project, they would not want to stick their neck out. And, not cost-effective for the effort required to produce verses the relatively small audience.

There are some online Masters who have continuing webcasts that are free and some that are subscription, and many swear by them. Water Pall on this site is very interesting and worth following.

 

[Seedlng]

All you have to do is to look through any thread here or elsewhere and see the divergent opinions on everything and the vicious arguments that ensue about the details, great and small. IMHO, by the time someone achieves enough gravitas to do such a project, they would not want to stick their neck out. And, not cost-effective for the effort required to produce verses the relatively small audience.

There are some online Masters who have continuing webcasts that are free and some that are subscription, and many swear by them. Water Pall on this site is very interesting and worth following.

Ah lol I wondered if it could be something like that... thanks ill check some of those out!

 

[Forsoothe!]

Don't take my word for it. Others may have other opinions. It fact, I'm sure of it...

 

[Scooter9166 - 5a]

There are just too many variables: climate, available water, available soil, quality of your stock, available time, the list goes on and on.

 

[coltranem]

Not an in depth book or anything, juat the basics (eg.trident maple start to finish)

What do you mean by start? From a seed, a seedling, a ground grown prebonsai?

And when is a Bonsai finished? When it dies?

There are plenty of basics out there to get you started. books websites. Plus there are classes (online and in person). There are clubs. There is even this forum.

What are you having trouble with? If you post a specific question on developing a tree. I am sure you will get responses.

However if you are looking for the equivalent of a paint by number Mona Lisa. It doesn't exist.

 

[Shibui]

I think the problem is that there is not just one way to a bonsai. Even with just one species there are many different ways to get to the same developed bonsai. Bonsai uses living things that respond in different ways at different times. It is not cut and dried like maths.
Sometimes it depends what you are starting with.
Sometimes results will depend on your particular environment and care and a particular method won't work as well for you as for someone else.
Often it depends what you want to end up with - size, style, no scars, large scars, better nebari, taper/no taper, etc.
Some who shout loudly that their methods are best have just not been at it long enough to recognise the future pitfalls that are coming for them.

Look at different methods, check the long term results and cross reference all that with some realistic knowledge of how plants grow and respond to various techniques then toss a coin and have a go.

 

[Anthony]

Guideline - 1 inch trunk = 6 inches of height

Get the trunk size first, then the first 6 branches,
Usually ground grow.

Next step - in an over sized bonsai pot train branchlets.

It helps to grow 5 to 10 efforts of the same type.

Take written notes.

Some trees with a branch extension of 3 feet will thicken
the trunk by an inch.

Later on with experience - draw your designs.

The problem you are seeing deals with not growing from seed.
Most "Masters" buy as a short cut.
Those of us who start trees from the teens, have much time to
experiment - and also have done Biology, Chemistry and other
sciences in school with examined grades of A's.

Bonsai is simple ---------- the information out there is confused.
Good Day
Anthony

HEALTH then Design.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Guides are tough because it’s hard to factor in variables that exist among climates, growing sites, and horticultural skills.

The best way to improve: find someone who has trees you admire, and do what he/she does, period. That may be a club member, a pro in your area, or even a willing teacher through online support. Ignore all the rest until you have enough knowledge and experience to disseminate nuances that you can incorporate.

Add your general location to your profile so we have an idea of where in the world you live. Welcome.

 

[Saddler]

It took me four years to find the right growing medium that works in my climate. Fertilizing was another 4 years after I figured out the soil. And I am by no means done with refining either.

Details like those make it difficult to make a catch all system. I’ll bet someone could write an AI program that could do a decent job of it one day though. For now, it’s a learning experience for each and every small tree in a pot growing enthusiast. I’ve asked here if there are guides for 'simple' things like pruning and hard cut backs to give a good result with the healing.... nope.

 

[rockm]

Ive been into and reading about bonsai for several decades and something has me puzzled.
With all the solid info we have on growing bonsai, why in all these years have I not been able to find step by step grow guides for speciffic species? No guesswork or a lot of research needed just follow the step by step instructions with your tree and it will become a decent bonsai in time.

Not an in depth book or anything, juat the basics (eg.trident maple start to finish)

For any tree I attempt I spend countless hours putting together my own plan based on snippets I find here and there.
I do enjoy all the research but honestly im not made of time.

Tbh I could just be really bad at searching.

Do such grow guides exist and if not why?

Anyone point me in the direction?

The other bit of info that doesnt seem to exist is a guide to measurements...
I do find random bits here and there on various pages about what lengths you should cut branches and trunks etc to achieve your desired finished hights and thicknesses... But why is there no complete sample guide of the various measurements per species?

The bottom line reason is, because such a step-by-step plan isn't possible because of climate differences, quality, health of the specific tree you're working on and lastly ABILITY and GOALS of the person working on it.

Sounds elitist and snobbish. It's not. Individual trees are, well, individuals with hugely different variables. Tree root systems, top growth, and health are all not assembly-line made. If a step by step guide tells you to "chop the trunk in year one" and "root prune the second year" the advice might well kill the tree YOU'RE working on, if it's less than robust, has weak top growth and no root system. Also, if you're working with a maple in California, the timing might not be the same for work if you live in Massachusetts. Root pruning time in Cali. is months ahead of Mass. and root pruning too early in a frost and freeze prone zone will kill your tree.

There are more than a few variables like this.

The specific measurements of branches, trunks, etc. again DEPENDS ON THE INDIVIDUAL TREE and YOUR PLANS TO DEVELOP THE MATERIAL. Looking to a pre-formed plan will probably ignore most of what the tree you have offers for design.

And FWIW, step-by-step processes in an art lead to soulless, dull and uninteresting results--compare paint-by-numbers paintings and actual paintings. Bonsai is a learned craft/art. You don't get good results in a minute or an hour, or even five years with most trees (if you do, you have a VERY good eye for starting material). It is a journey of learning and honing your skills and your trees. Expecting the process to be canned and opened up to produce great trees misses the point of bonsai. The end result is not a "finished" tree, as trees are NEVER finished. Bonsai is about developing skills and the patience those skills require to develop--in other words, it's the journey, not the destination.

Yes, this sounds like New Age crappola. I am hardly a believer in Energy Vortices and other BS.

New Age Bullshit Generator

We are in the midst of a cosmic flowering of synchronicity that will remove the barriers to the dreamscape itself.

sebpearce.com

BUT, the more you do bonsai, the more you will "get" why step-by-step instructions are more obstacle than aide.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Actually there are good books out there, but some are out of print or not readily available. Peter Chan has written a number over the years such as his Bonsai Master Class and of course Bonsai From the Wild by Nick Lenz. Peter Adams’ has a good book on Japanese maples. The real issue is that no single book can cover a wide range of species and there just isn’t a big enough audience for them anyway. A book will be printed in a run of a few thousand and then sell out to the few of us wanting it and then will not be reprinted. Some folks like Harry Harrington have turned to self publishing and selling ebooks (although you can get his printed copies of his books on Amazon). However now that every guy with a cell phone can shoot a how to vodeo and post it on YouTube most of the public doesn’t want to take the time to actually read a book on how to do something.

 

[wireme]

Yes, this sounds like New Age crappola. I am hardly a believer in Energy Vortices and other BS.

Oh yeah, here comes rockm with his new age bs again!!
No, I never would have suspected, you must hide your healing crystals and things very well, back of the closet?

 

[Zach Smith]

One of the very best things about bonsai is that it's a "collaborative" effort between the artist, the tree, the geographical location, the chosen planting medium, fertilizers, watering practices, the pests and diseases, and all the sources of information including the opinions of folks trying to help. It's nothing short of amazing that we can make our bonsai look like real trees and maintain them over a long period of time. As for guidelines, there's basic information out there on most species and basic techniques to apply, guidance on soil characteristics, etc. But there's no way to make bonsai into cooking up some hamburger helper. And who would want that anyway?

 

[Anthony]

@Seedlng ,

also try working with the simpler styles, formal, slanted and
one or two in informal.

Train yourself with native trees from your area.
Observe mature trees.

Know that trees evolved to handle breaking branches, being
bitien, but not vines wrapping around them.
So wiring will slow down your efforts.
Try Directional pruning [ grow and clip ]

See Ryan Neal's encounter with Australian work, months
not years. Seen on AusBonsai.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[wireme]

Great post!

It's nothing short of amazing that we can make our bonsai look like real trees and maintain them over a long period of time.

That’s what I like to hear, bringing the awe back into b”awe”nsai.

 

[Mayank]

Interesting discussion. I agree with everyone about the fact that there is information out there but it is not possible to have a cookie-cutter manual. Even within the same species there is variance two trees in two different pots on the same patio or deck so to think that all trees of that species big and small, healthy or sick, overpotted or underpotted, zone 5 vs zone 7 or 8, etc, etc would have similar guidelines is unrealistic. Think about people. When we have family that lives in tropical areas come over they are freezing on a 65 F day in March and we're wearing shorts because it is sooo "hot". Never mind the geographical variance. At work every single day there are people who says it is freezing in here (thermostat reads 69 F) and then others who are "dying" because they are "melting". Go figure...….

As far as books go I was surprised that nobody mentioned John Naka's Bonsai Techniques I and II. That's where my son and I started our journey years ago along with instruction from our teacher/mentor Mr. Vance Hanna.

Honestly though for a form of artistic expression that has existed for centuries with the Japanese being the "holy grail" and the final word on bonsai, if anyone looks at Japanese magazines from the 70s (not that long ago in the timeline of bonsai, right?) and looks at the current bonsai esthetic in Japan, there is a huge difference right there. All that being said, bonsai is one of the best things to ever have happened to me (along with family and hiking )!