Black Pine major limb bending?

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

I recently acquired a rather unusual black pine. To bring it into what I envision for it I have to make a major bend in one section of a limb. It is about 5/8" in diameter and dead straight for about 6". I need to twist that section 180° and put some bend in it as well.

I have considered several options:

1. Raffia copper wire, twist and bend.
2. Limb splitting into quarters, raffia, copper wire. Twist and bend.
3. Routing a channel the entire 6", hollowing out the heart wood. Raffia, copper wire, twist and bend. The down side of this option is the hollow area will allow the limb to collapse on it's self and create a reverse taper effect. As it is twisted it will get smaller in diameter.

Two questions. First, what is the consensus of the Board of Directors as to the best method? And second, when is the "right" time of the year to do major limb bending?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

You could dislocate it slightly from the trunk (like this) to get movement, and split it longitudinally (once, not into quarters) for part of the straight 6" section to get tortion. Wrap it in raffia and wire carefully.

Now is a good time if its just starting to push growth.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Here is a pine before and after dislodging the main right branch from the trunk. The branch is about an inch in diameter, and 3" long. It was parallel to the soil before, and lowered about 30 degrees.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

As Brian stated now would be a decent time to do this... of course this level of work is dependent on the health of the tree ... this should only be carried out on a very healthy tree... black pines are strong growers and so a healthy tree should heal rather quickly.

180deg is a long way to bend so I would agree you may need to split .... you can also notch the branch depending on where you need to make the bend.... in either case it is important to ensure that you line the cambiums up correctly to get proper healing (where possible) .....

Brian's example is a really good one and the technique is surprisingly more easy than one might think at first.... hollowing is a technique we have used many times and usually we fill the cavity with wire to ensure its shape.... essentially replacing the hollowed out wood with more flexible wire.... which can be removed later.... you won't need to hollow the whole section just the places with the bend..... are we talking some very complex movement?

the tree sounds interesting..... if you are up to it seeing a picture of the tree and the problem branch with some indication of your intended design would be very interesting... as well as helpful

after work like this you will most likely want to let the tree grow freely for a year or two (at least that branch) to ensure good strength and that the changes will hold...

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Fantastic web site Brian. Thank you for your work.

Ang3lfir3, I don't have a good photo right now of the tree. I'm off to the mountains early in the morning for some trout fishing. I'll take some photos of the tree and provide more details tomorrow night if I am not worn out.

Meanwhile I attach a photo from a book that I am using as a design that I want to achieve. In this picture the first step of the trunk is shorter than my tree and the second step is longer. What I am going to try and attempt is that sharp reverse bend that you see at the very top.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

View attachment 21845
Meanwhile I attach a photo from a book that I am using as a design that I want to achieve. In this picture the first step of the trunk is shorter than my tree and the second step is longer. What I am going to try and attempt is that sharp reverse bend that you see at the very top.

That sharp bend can be achieved with a notch in the trunk.... using a very fine saw cut the notch out so that when the edges meet you will have the angle you desire.... leaving a small flap of cambium at the top.... when you fold over the two pieces ensure that the cambiums line up ..... you can then sure them with raffia and wire... it is important to ensure the cambium layers line up as best as possible as essentially you are grafting the two areas together.... We have done this with several black pines at Elandan to achieve strong 45deg bends... it is important to ensure that the small flap that is left attached does not get damaged too much... as little cracking as possible should be ensured to help do this....

you could also do something similar by hollowing out the area inside the bend and ensuring the edges rolled inward...

 

[johng]

Hey Mac, If you want to achieve something similar to the pic you posted you need to actually break the branch. Notice that the top of the bend has a point...that won't be achieved by bend alone...the branch needs to snap there but only on the outside edge (and for this type of style you need the point as just a bend will not look natural). Personally, I would not remove any of the material from the inside of the bend (as suggested in the post above) if you are going to snap the outside and twist...leave the inside intact...it will never match up once you bend and twist...only weaken the branch.

Also, I think you will find that the twist you need will be very doable and practically the only way to successfully bend a branch that much is to twist and bend at the same time. Pay attention to how you wrap the wire...it needs to be coiled onto the branch in the same direction as you want the twist to occur...I might even put it on a little looser than normal because you will be tightening the wire significantly when you bend and twist. I would certainly use something like raffia to help keep the branch from breaking too much. The goal you seek is a challenge but it is achievable. However, it will take a gentle and careful approach so as not to completely snap the branch. I don't think I would consider splitting the branch either...great technique just not for what you want to achieve.

I think now or soon would be a good time to do this.

Good luck,
John

 

[fore]

That sharp bend can be achieved with a notch in the trunk.... using a very fine saw cut the notch out so that when the edges meet you will have the angle you desire.... leaving a small flap of cambium at the top.... when you fold over the two pieces ensure that the cambiums line up ..... you can then sure them with raffia and wire... it is important to ensure the cambium layers line up as best as possible as essentially you are grafting the two areas together.... We have done this with several black pines at Elandan to achieve strong 45deg bends... it is important to ensure that the small flap that is left attached does not get damaged too much... as little cracking as possible should be ensured to help do this....

you could also do something similar by hollowing out the area inside the bend and ensuring the edges rolled inward...

I tried this yesterday on a practice tree lol. It's much harder than described to get the cambrium's lined up. Maybe after I do this 20 more times I'll get the hang of it. But as a novice to this technique, I highly suggest you try this on a tree you don't care about.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

The notch trick is a good one to have in the bag, but I've never been happy with the result. It's not natural because it buckles on the sides, and it is hard to get the cambiums to line up. A carefully executed break at the right time, with appropriate aftercare will give a more natural result.

 

[fore]

Really Brian?? It's mentioned so much you'd think it was a great technique.

After you break the branch from the top where it attaches at the trunk, you then say to " Wrapped in Parafilm and then raffia to hold in moisture, a length of #8 copper wire was applied to the branch to support it." Wouldn't it be better to put the moist raffia on first,then put the parafilm on next...wouldn't that keep it moist longer/better? Or even using paste to the gap with the bamboo, then cover it? How long did you leave the bamboo in Brian?
Either way, I'll def. try this next time because as I said, I did a pretty miserable job on the under cut job lol

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Really Brian?? It's mentioned so much you'd think it was a great technique.

After you break the branch from the top where it attaches at the trunk, you then say to " Wrapped in Parafilm and then raffia to hold in moisture, a length of #8 copper wire was applied to the branch to support it." Wouldn't it be better to put the moist raffia on first,then put the parafilm on next...wouldn't that keep it moist longer/better? I'll def. try this next time because as I said, I did a pretty miserable job on the under cut job lol

It definitely has a place, but I'm not a big fan of the result, when compared to a "grip and rip"...which happens naturally.

As for parafilm first, that was how Kathy taught me. Parafilm creates a good membrane over the cut, which holds in the tree's moisture pretty well. Raffia over the top helps hold it still and protects the branch from the wire. Plus, Parafilm is photodegradable, so it splits after a few days or weeks in the sunshine. Covering it with raffia keeps it intact longer.

 

[amkhalid]

Mac, one important variable here is the age of the branch. It may not be obvious, but older pine branches bend much easier that younger branches. Old branches tend to tear (usually not a big deal), while young branches tend to snap.

You'd be surprised what you can get away with on pines given the correct aftercare (prevent it from freezing and cover the wound with something). Raffia may not help your situation, especially if you want a really sharp bend. Plus, you may have nice bark that you want to protect.

Its hard to say without actually seeing and touching the tree, but in general if it is a young tree, I would do an undercut graft as some here have suggested. If it is an old tree, I would just gradually crank and tear it.

Take care.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

As I said.... we've used it for 45deg bends.... this is a whole other matter... I've never been bothered by the way the two areas meet but innevitably we are doing it in an area that gets hidden... so again its not used often....

breaking seems to be the consensus and a good idea and its easy enough .....

@fore -- in truth its more of a growing technique than bonsai technique....

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Pictures, Description and Proposed Design

Here is the tree. A little history first. A local Bonsai Club went to a commercial nursery, the place has been let go for a good number of years and the owner "finds" stuff in the tangles of briars and brambles. He had 25 or so black pine that didn't interest me. But wandering around in the jungle I ran across this one laying on it's side in a tangle of blackberry vines and I got it. Cost $35. It has great bark on the trunk and I thought there might be a way to develop it into a neat but odd design bonsai.

Attached is a sketch of where I want to end up. I don't have a lot of branches to play with so I only get one shot at the major work.

I put a softball in the pot and stood a yard stick up so you have some size references. It is ca. 14" from the soil surface to the point where the work needs doing.

You can see in the sketch where I want to end up. To get there the straight section of limb or trunk, depending on how you apply the words, is ca. 6" long. I need to twist it 180° and put a bend it in at the same time. Look at the sketch and then the tree it's self and I think what I have in mind becomes clear.

There are a good number of dead branches to gin when the main problem is solved. The large limb right underneath the one I need to work with is coming off. I can leave a stub to gin or take it off cleanly. If off cleanly I think that should be done after the twist and bend are finished and I am also using it as leverage to put a bend in the main trunk, that's what the wire and turnbuckle is for.

So back to my original questions. Not ignoring all the great advice given before just would like opinions after a more clear description, photos and design proposal. The main concern I have is as I stated before. How do I get a twist and bend in that straight section of branch. Hollow it out the whole length, use limb splitter or just raffia and copper wire coiled around it.

I do see a piece of re-bar to us as a lever. It would be attached to the two dead branches at the top of the straight section and used a leverage to twist the branch and then hold it in place after twisting until the limb sets. One of the dead limbs is clearly seen in the photo of the straight section, the other one sticks out straight behind and you can't see it in the photo.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

I just notice I put the wrong (fuzzy) photo of the tree as it is today. Here is a better one.

 

[stacy allen muse]

Mac,
I see where you are trying to go with this... but just as a design aspect, I gotta say that I am not really loving the loop-de-loop.
Sorry...
As a suggestion of a more natural design, as well as an easier process...
I would wire your leader with a very heavy wire, 6 in alum., without rafia, and then rather than bend the branch down to the right and twist...
I would bend it a little at a time down to the left, not trying to do this all at one time... a little one day, wait a couple of days, do a little more.
The goal is to end up comming down parallel to your trrunk on the left side, then bring your branches across to the right.

Eventually, the branch will snap, but judging by the size and thickness of your leader,it really shouldn't do it untill you get to the very end of the bend...
Which in my opinion, I would shoot up with your trunk, do a complete 180, then come right back down beside your trunk.
When it snaps... dress the wound in damp sphagnum moss and wrap with a piece of plastic bag, with some notches cut... like an air-layer.
JBP are amazingly limber, and can take the bends surprisingly well...

Sorry would do virt for you but computer is not working... using wife's kindle.

Also, I remember seeing these vids along time ago, and tract them down...
These show different process, I personally don't like cutting to much into pines, to much of a consequence, if it doesn't survive, especially with the far to little foilage that you currently have.
Good luck...
http://vimeo.com/38617272
http://vimeo.com/35086193

 

[tanlu]

Go for it. If it breaks you can always glue it back on.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Mac, I replied to your PM, but looking at this again I have a couple concerns with the work you want to do. Cutting off the lowest branch and leaving the top may severely weaken the tree. The upper branch is weak, lower branch is strong. The soil looks organic and broken down, and I suspect the roots might be weak, from the soil and looking at the dieback and growth. Just a guess, but if you are patient and really want to work with this tree, you might consider not pruning anything, but instead, combing away the old soil...both from the outer course you slip potted it into that basket with, and really getting into the round section from the nursery can. Then, potting it into coarse inorganic soil, and into a container (not too big) that is rigid so the roots don't move around.

Then spend this year pumping it up and getting it strong. Early next spring, have someone help you graft a few new shoots onto the trunk and remake the tree using as much of the aged trunk as you can.

 

[Dav4]

I agree with Brian. The tree, and particularly the banch you want to keep, appear weak. Focusing on the tree's health is the way to go this year, followed by some sort of bud or approach grafting on the lower trunk to remake the branching in a more suitable location.

 

[Mac In Oak Ridge]

Mac, I replied to your PM, but looking at this again I have a couple concerns with the work you want to do. Cutting off the lowest branch and leaving the top may severely weaken the tree. The upper branch is weak, lower branch is strong.

The main reason that the upper branch is weak and the lower one is so strong is that it was laying on it's side in the briar patch. The weak branch laying along the ground and the strong branch was doing it's job as the leader. I just don't see how any water at all got into the root mass. There were a few roots coming out of the holes in the pot and I cut them off to get it off the ground.