Bigger Kiln, Bigger pots-- New challenges and progress.

[namnhi]

I like how @ABCarve pack his pots but the one I got from him is nothing as big as yours. He definitely put quite a bit of effort into it to make sure the pot makes it to the destination in one piece. Hope he can chime it.

 

[Hartinez]

I think @NaoTK nailed it in his assessment of the time it takes to pack and ship big pots. Your work quality and name are getting to the pot where people, especially those spending loot on big pots, will go to you to pickup. Your time is best spent making.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I looked for a couple years trying to find a big pot for my bald cypress and finally got it from Rob last year. I have gotten several large pots from a potter in NH and she does a great job of packing. However I ordered a larger one from House of Bonsai in LA and it arrived in several pieces due to their crappy packing. A piece of bubble wrap top and bottom and one piece wrapped around it was all there was. Fortunately it was insured so I got my money back, so be careful to either insure your order or make sure to get a money back guarantee. Personally I will no longer have anything over 16” shipped so Rob and a couple other local potters are my go to for the big boys. Unfortunately my wife’s kiln can only take 14-16” pots.

 

[mwar15]

It takes me about 30 mins to pack a large pot. That is if I don’t have to make the box

 

[ForrestW]

Those look fantastic! At the minimum, expanding foam packing. What do the 32" pots weigh?

Thank you so much! I have gotten some packages that used expanding foam-- I will need to do some research on it (as well as see where they sell it). I do not know the weight, but will check when I get home. These begin with about 60-75lbs of clay but that is wet-- I would guess 30lbs or more.

I don't have experience shipping ceramics, but I have shipped quite a few large fragile items overseas. I usually use a piece of plywood at the bottom of the box and use plastic bags and expanding foam. I started using the can "Great Stuff", but the last time I used 2 part closed cell foam. Another method could be to use a very over sized box, wrap the pot in bubble wrap filling the pot void with "peanuts" and filling the box with more peanuts with the pot in the center.

If you are good at wood working and want to up your game you could do like @Pitoon and make your own box (Tomobako). But I think it will be expensive for the size of the pots your are making.

I like the idea of trying great stuff as its easy to go get at the hardware store. If you have ever used it do you need to let it set for a minute before applying weight to it or will it hold pretty quickly? Thanks for the advice I do think making amazing boxes like @Pitoon would be out of my league-- even without the scale issue.

Brilliant work as always Rob. See you ate the Winter Silhouette Show. Can't make the show at the arboretum .... I',m running low on steam.

Thanks-- I look forward to seeing you in December

Such great pieces Rob.

My thoughts on shipping.

Id be terrified to ship such big pieces across the country, though I’m certain others do it. You may consider rigid foam insulation as a packing material, to build interior frames or wallsInside of boxes. Even stretch wrapping pots to large pieces that are cut the size of the box, then securing that into place could work maybe? I’ve shipped this way with smaller pots and any trees I’ve shipped. The trees and pots don’t move at all and the ridges foam takes any abuse in needs.
We also have a local box supplier that has a vast number of box sizes. I’d imagine you have something similar nearby?

If you are charging a premium for these pots, and I hope you are, and you def should, paying for premium packing materials should be totally worth it.



@NaoTK may have thoughts on shipping big pots

I appreciate the diagram and the advice. You are definitely correct about spending the money to make sure the packing materials are going to get the job done! Thanks

Thank you Rob for making the beautiful big ovals on that side of the country Looking great. Are you extruding your initial ring like Ron Lang did or actually starting with centered clay?

My strategy for shipping >28" pots revolves around not doing it. Or any pot really these days. It is not worth my time or people's time and money for me to ship pots piecemeal. That's time I should be spending making pots. So I try to arrange pick up at Nationals or PBE or other shows. That's the strategy folks like Sara Raynor have adopted...just one big ass show once a year. Anyone buying a 32" oval is probably going anyway.

If I do ship, it is like below, and it has always worked, never failed. You have to assume the box will be thrown, because it will be. So the fluffy outer region absorbs that impact. Then the rigid braces prevent crushing because they usually put nice flat big boxes on the bottom of stacks of other boxes.

Thanks you very much for the kind works and feedback. You are spot on in what you and Sara do! In the short term, its hard to take off school (darn day job) to do many shows, but in the long run that is the route to go. It would be much better to spend the time making more pots than building boxes and crates

As for the technique-- on these big pots I do start with an extruded donut-- Its really hard to center and pull out 30-40lbs of clay unless you mix it really really soft. And... I am not a big guy...

I worked for the ups store so I have some experience packing.

To create some boxes you can telescope two boxes of the same width together and cut down to whatever height you wish. There are tools to score the boxes so you can fold the newly created flaps to your desired height.

For fragile items we always double box and make sure it survives a minimum 4 foot drop from a conveyer belt or if something drops on it to bounce it off or absorb the impact. Fragile stickers do not work, no worker really reads them.

Freight is the safest option to send stuff but the most expensive. I would source the company to avoid markups
I’ve had 2 shipments from Japan that I believe use liquid foam (insulation foam?) Seems like a good way to pack stuff.

I hope that helps…

Thank you so much for the feedback. I have talked to a few freight companies so far but it would be expensive-- and time consuming. I can usually ship my 24" and smaller pots double boxed and I can pack them in about 30 minutes. I like the idea of telescoping 2 boxes together-- I purchased a set of 30x 36x 8" boxes with the thought of putting them together as an outside box (I have 30"x24"

The shallow oval left me overcome with pot lust!

boxes already). I also have the scoring tool to make new folds/ adjust the size of the box. It was super cheap and very helpful.

 

[gooeytek]

plan B: Road trip!

 

[Maiden69]

If you have ever used it do you need to let it set for a minute before applying weight to it or will it hold pretty quickly?

That one takes a few minutes, but not a lot, I place a trash bag inside the box, spray a few lines in the bottom, then when it starts rising I spray more in the shape of whatever I am shipping then fold the trash bag over it and place the item, then place another trash bag on top of the item, spray a decent amount (do not over do it) then fold the bag over and tape the box close.

I have shipped auto trim pieces, headlights, guitars, and some glass figures.

 

[Cajunrider]

You are so talented!! I wish I had so good advice for you! I do think at this point that size container is going to be in high demand. I suspect, like me, many folks will be willing to travel to obtain this kind of work.

Yep. As soon as my BCs are ready, I am heading that way!

 

[Wood]

These are all great, but I especially love the middle pot in the first photo.

Dude me too. I started wondering if it was sale and then realized how fricking big it is

 

[JeffS73]

I think Nao hit it on the head, a lot of time and effort that could be used more productively. I recently shipped 3 pots to the US, a Ryuen and a yuji Nakano were smashed to bits. You guys need a national bonsai network of enthusiasts to ship with. I'm not sure about exp foam, very rigid. Maybe in a box in another box with peanuts.

 

[JeffS73]

Anyhow that's my response to the rather dull dilemma of packing, I did want to say how awesome it is that you've got that kiln and space to work with and you documented it for us, thank you!

I have this plan to build a downdraft gas kiln that can do Soda, but I'm getting nowhere with it. Kudos for your drive to get it done.

 

[Carol 83]

I like how @ABCarve pack his pots but the one I got from him is nothing as big as yours. He definitely put quite a bit of effort into it to make sure the pot makes it to the destination in one piece. Hope he can chime it.

One that I received from him was so tight in the styrofoam, I had a hard time getting it out!

 

[WNC Bonsai]

I got several Chinese pots from an importer in California several years ago and they used the expanded foam method. It was great, not a single chip or ding. If I was going to ship pots I would definitely look into it. Now of course the downside to big pots is the big price tag. If you decide to get or grow a big bonsai better factor in the big cost of a pot! Mine cost me about half what I paid Zach for the 3’ tall BC stump. Also moving a tree in a big pots is a job for 2 guys or one with a forklift! To take it to a club show I have to remove the passenger seat out of my truck or rent a van.

 

[Colorado]

Not sure if I should start a new thread or if folks will read this and hopefully offer some help. I have been Off B-nut and for the most part social media this summer, just having a good time traveling and getting in the studio. I made a good bit of new work this summer and will have a very full display at the NC arboretum in a few weeks for the Blue Ridge Bonsai Society Club Exhibition.

I tried to continue to explore big pots this summer mainly as a challenge-- it is hard to throw and keep a clean form with a good finish on this size. I am pleased with the progress I am making but now I need to really figure out pricing and shipping. I have shipped a lot of pots (over 1000) over the last 3 years, and as large as 26". But with these new pots, many are exceeding the size of the boxes I can find and probably would need to ship in a crate (I suspect???). I would appreciate any feedback, on my work, but most specifically if you have experience shipping big heavy pots/trees. All of these pots are between 28"-33" and I hope to both make some of my big pots available regionally but also those who are farther away (people who need this size pot are far and few between).

So, if you have any tips or pointers where to learn how to ship this size work, and honest estimates about the time and cost of this process I would be grateful.

Here are some new work from this summer. The top pot is 28" the bottom one is 33" View attachment 563822
This is the shallow oval for @johng 31" I think. (thanks for sharing it in use-- hope to see these other pots some day with a great tree in them)

View attachment 563823
28" oval

View attachment 563824
28" oval

View attachment 563825

32" oval
View attachment 563826

32" oval
View attachment 563827

Thanks for any tips, and or feedback -- Rob

These pots are nuts man!

It is hard enough to make a small bonsai pot. Then it becomes exponentially more difficult to make a pot even just in the 15+ inch range. I honestly don’t know how you guys do it to make these 30+ inch pots. Super, super impressive!

 

[ForrestW]

plan B: Road trip!

Excellent!

Dude me too. I started wondering if it was sale and then realized how fricking big it is

Would love to have you come visit (I not too far from the NC Arboretum as well)

Anyhow that's my response to the rather dull dilemma of packing, I did want to say how awesome it is that you've got that kiln and space to work with and you documented it for us, thank you!

I have this plan to build a downdraft gas kiln that can do Soda, but I'm getting nowhere with it. Kudos for your drive to get it done.

Thanks for the feedback and kind words. I wish I would have build my gas/wood kiln as a downdraft. I went cross draft to get more dramatic variation (which I like) but it also has more dramatic changes in temperature as well, so I do not use it as often as I would like.

These pots are nuts man!

It is hard enough to make a small bonsai pot. Then it becomes exponentially more difficult to make a pot even just in the 15+ inch range. I honestly don’t know how you guys do it to make these 30+ inch pots. Super, super impressive!

Thanks-- its been a 21 year journey so far, but so much of it is process and technique (and a bigger kiln). Hope to hang out and talk pots some day!

 

[PerryB]

Great article on The Curator's Journal Blog from the bonsai collection at the North Carolina Arboretum featuring some of Rob's pots (STUNNING):

American Bonsai Pots - Part 2, Right Here, Right Now — The Curator's Journal

Those pots were made in Japan or China and their character was part of the whole “Ancient Art of Bonsai” package. In the beginning this was not a problem. The desirability of producing bonsai that adhered to a certain conventionally approved form was only another of the rules in a game I was learnin

curatorsjournal.net

 

[gooeytek]

Great article on The Curator's Journal Blog from the bonsai collection at the North Carolina Arboretum featuring some of Rob's pots (STUNNING):

American Bonsai Pots - Part 2, Right Here, Right Now — The Curator's Journal

Those pots were made in Japan or China and their character was part of the whole “Ancient Art of Bonsai” package. In the beginning this was not a problem. The desirability of producing bonsai that adhered to a certain conventionally approved form was only another of the rules in a game I was learnin

curatorsjournal.net

That's some well-deserved recognition.

 

[JeffS73]

An interesting article, thank you! Ron Lang really stands out for me. Justifications in the article not so much. Jim Gremel is a noticeable absence for me. I would dearly love one of his bonsai or tea pots. He had skill and deep perception.

Also, Jonathan Cross! His pots look ridiculously heavy but I love his direction of travel.