Big Honkin’ Azalea
- Thread starter yashu
- Start date
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Yes, tested it in the past. Seems to work well in Kanuma/pumice, yet it is very fine. So used the rest in the garden, where it works great.
Tried Build a soil, which was a little less fine.
Finally.switched it to Karen O’Hanlon’s Probiochar, which has best granular size..
Haven’t found a chunkier one yet.
Cheers
DSD sends
I’ve heard very good things about all her products. IIRC her char is created from olive pits.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
This ours correct, yet the British politely refer to these as olive stone 
Glaucus
Omono
Mycorrhizal fungi is good. But azaleas need very specific mycorrhizal fungi, namely ericoid mycorrhiza.
en.wikipedia.org
This product likely has mycorrhizal fungi spores for pines or oaks, or grasses, etc namely arbuscular mycorrhiza.
The species you want for azaleas are Oidiodendron and Hymenoscyphus spp.
There are ericaceous fertilizers that claim they have the correct mycorrhiza. However, it is about viable spore counts of the right species. It seems very hard for consumers to check this.
It may also be that these fungi are ubiquitous and in the air and in the soil anyway. Because you have native ericaceous plants. And the mushrooms of these fungi produce plenty of spores.
Not sure how these Oidiodendon species work. Not too much general info and I don't want to dig further into the scientific literature.|
I can't tell you if all Oidiodendon species are ericoid mycorrhiza. But it seems that they might. And that they are also able to live fine without any plant symbiosis. Including in rare cases living inside our skin.
Best option to make sure your azaleas have the right ericoid mycorrhizal fungi might be to find a spot where native blueberries or azaleas or heath or heather plants grown, and collect some soil from there. And inoculate.
I do now use a ericaceous plant compost that is advertised to contain ericoid mycorrhiza for my potted azaleas. Many look excellent. But, I am not sure if it really matters.
I suspect that with good plant management, the azaleas do not even need any ericoid mycorrhiza. It is either that. Or they are ubiquitous and there no matter what you do.
Ericoid mycorrhiza - Wikipedia
This product likely has mycorrhizal fungi spores for pines or oaks, or grasses, etc namely arbuscular mycorrhiza.
The species you want for azaleas are Oidiodendron and Hymenoscyphus spp.
There are ericaceous fertilizers that claim they have the correct mycorrhiza. However, it is about viable spore counts of the right species. It seems very hard for consumers to check this.
It may also be that these fungi are ubiquitous and in the air and in the soil anyway. Because you have native ericaceous plants. And the mushrooms of these fungi produce plenty of spores.
Not sure how these Oidiodendon species work. Not too much general info and I don't want to dig further into the scientific literature.|
I can't tell you if all Oidiodendon species are ericoid mycorrhiza. But it seems that they might. And that they are also able to live fine without any plant symbiosis. Including in rare cases living inside our skin.
Best option to make sure your azaleas have the right ericoid mycorrhizal fungi might be to find a spot where native blueberries or azaleas or heath or heather plants grown, and collect some soil from there. And inoculate.
I do now use a ericaceous plant compost that is advertised to contain ericoid mycorrhiza for my potted azaleas. Many look excellent. But, I am not sure if it really matters.
I suspect that with good plant management, the azaleas do not even need any ericoid mycorrhiza. It is either that. Or they are ubiquitous and there no matter what you do.
I’ll have to check and see what the types of fungi are in the Dr. Earth’s Acid Lovers are. The product is supposedly formulated for azaleas and maples so it may have what’s needed. That said there was visible mycorrhizal growth on the roots of this azalea when I dug it up. I was a little worried that it might be root aphids but fortunately it was not.Mycorrhizal fungi is good. But azaleas need very specific mycorrhizal fungi, namely ericoid mycorrhiza.
Ericoid mycorrhiza - Wikipedia
This product likely has mycorrhizal fungi spores for pines or oaks, or grasses, etc namely arbuscular mycorrhiza.
The species you want for azaleas are Oidiodendron and Hymenoscyphus spp.
There are ericaceous fertilizers that claim they have the correct mycorrhiza. However, it is about viable spore counts of the right species. It seems very hard for consumers to check this.
It may also be that these fungi are ubiquitous and in the air and in the soil anyway. Because you have native ericaceous plants. And the mushrooms of these fungi produce plenty of spores.
Not sure how these Oidiodendon species work. Not too much general info and I don't want to dig further into the scientific literature.|
I can't tell you if all Oidiodendon species are ericoid mycorrhiza. But it seems that they might. And that they are also able to live fine without any plant symbiosis. Including in rare cases living inside our skin.
Best option to make sure your azaleas have the right ericoid mycorrhizal fungi might be to find a spot where native blueberries or azaleas or heath or heather plants grown, and collect some soil from there. And inoculate.
I do now use a ericaceous plant compost that is advertised to contain ericoid mycorrhiza for my potted azaleas. Many look excellent. But, I am not sure if it really matters.
I suspect that with good plant management, the azaleas do not even need any ericoid mycorrhiza. It is either that. Or they are ubiquitous and there no matter what you do.
Glaucus
Omono
I looked a bit at the Oidiodendon maius papers. And it seems you cannot observe it at all with the naked eye. They show stained microscope images and then there's only one hyphae in a single root cell.
It could be that the same fungi grows on say pine bark chunks. I actually have never observed clear signs of ericoid micorrhizal fungi (EMF) in the thousands of azaleas I repotted. I have noticed white roots on rapidly growing seedlings. And yellow only roots on seedlings that are pot bound. I suspect the new roots by themselves are new. And if they are weeks old, they become yellow.
It would be great if some company found a strain of oidiodendon maius especially beneficial to azaleas. It seems it would be easy to produce that strain.
But it seems all EMF are generalists. And those that live in the soils of pine or oak forests can colonize all azalea (or blueberry or heather or rhododendron or kalma) root cells.
It could have been that one would require a specialist fungi from the soils in Japan or China, that co-evolved with the azalea species. But that seems not to be the case.
The downside with culturing an ideal strain is that through culturing it for many generations, it starts to adapt to living under the culture conditions. Rather than the soil or azalea root conditions.
There is also a point about if these EMF can live in substrates like kanuma as well as they can in peat, compost or pine bark.
It could be that the same fungi grows on say pine bark chunks. I actually have never observed clear signs of ericoid micorrhizal fungi (EMF) in the thousands of azaleas I repotted. I have noticed white roots on rapidly growing seedlings. And yellow only roots on seedlings that are pot bound. I suspect the new roots by themselves are new. And if they are weeks old, they become yellow.
It would be great if some company found a strain of oidiodendon maius especially beneficial to azaleas. It seems it would be easy to produce that strain.
But it seems all EMF are generalists. And those that live in the soils of pine or oak forests can colonize all azalea (or blueberry or heather or rhododendron or kalma) root cells.
It could have been that one would require a specialist fungi from the soils in Japan or China, that co-evolved with the azalea species. But that seems not to be the case.
The downside with culturing an ideal strain is that through culturing it for many generations, it starts to adapt to living under the culture conditions. Rather than the soil or azalea root conditions.
There is also a point about if these EMF can live in substrates like kanuma as well as they can in peat, compost or pine bark.
Last edited:
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
My thoughts at this moment…
Puzzled over this for a couple years. Have thought it’s highly likely azaleas will bring these fungi with them.
Karen O’Hanlon mentions fungi come with the plants in their seeds and roots.
Also Ericaceous varieties are ubiquitous, at least in our area. So addition of more mycorrhizae may be unnecessary long term.
Adding more compatible mycorrhiza during repotting may hasten the rhizosphere’s to reestablish its internal ecological balance and replenishing any mycorrhizae needed by the plant… or may not.
Yet still not clear how effective these microbes are in supplying nutrients as we all fertilize at a much higher level than the rhizosphere normally would… and focusing upon mycorrhizae neglects the bacteria which may be equally, or more than likely, more useful in supplying nutrients.
So have come to the conclusion that the addition of Biochar alone is much more important than mycorrhizae for maintaining a resilient rhizosphere that will support the plant in the long term
Cheers
DSD sends
Puzzled over this for a couple years. Have thought it’s highly likely azaleas will bring these fungi with them.
Karen O’Hanlon mentions fungi come with the plants in their seeds and roots.
Also Ericaceous varieties are ubiquitous, at least in our area. So addition of more mycorrhizae may be unnecessary long term.
Adding more compatible mycorrhiza during repotting may hasten the rhizosphere’s to reestablish its internal ecological balance and replenishing any mycorrhizae needed by the plant… or may not.
Yet still not clear how effective these microbes are in supplying nutrients as we all fertilize at a much higher level than the rhizosphere normally would… and focusing upon mycorrhizae neglects the bacteria which may be equally, or more than likely, more useful in supplying nutrients.
So have come to the conclusion that the addition of Biochar alone is much more important than mycorrhizae for maintaining a resilient rhizosphere that will support the plant in the long term
Cheers
DSD sends
Glaucus
Omono
That's common. I once asked a company about it, and they refused to tell me. And then they added that viable spore count doesn't really matter.
What I would like to know is if I culture their product in a petri dish, how many colonies I get. But they said what matters is how well it does in the soil. And that they had 'special formulation' for this. Or something.
Kinda sounded like a bit of bullshit. But I am not a microbiologist or soil scientist.
What I would like to know is if I culture their product in a petri dish, how many colonies I get. But they said what matters is how well it does in the soil. And that they had 'special formulation' for this. Or something.
Kinda sounded like a bit of bullshit. But I am not a microbiologist or soil scientist.
Glaucus
Omono
I also heard that seed coats contain the bacteria (not sure about fungi) that plants need later on. But rhododendron and azalea are rarely produced through seeds. It is one thing I wondered about when I raise from native seeds. Might it be that this way the plant get different beneficial bacteria inside their tissues? The type of symbiotic bacteria that can only enter the plant tissues at the embryo stage?
Lot's of unknowns here. And lots of reasons to think that us trying to manage this for nature often doesn't change anything. Yup, we also fertilize. The point of rhododendron & azalea and their EMF is that they live in acid nutrient poor thin soils on rocks that get a lot of rain. And that the EMF gives them the ability to scavenge nutrients that other plants aren't able to gather. But if you fertilize, it probably doesn't matter that much.
There's some papers on blueberries where they add EMF and they observe a significant improvement compared to their control, though.
I don't use biochar at all. I never understood the benefit. I watched some YT videos on Terra Preta, listened to the Hanlon podcast, scanned some review paper on it. I don't really get it, to be honest.
I almost want to just call it all 'charcoal' and call 'biochar' a myth. Sure, charcoal can play a role in a soil. But there's people claiming you need a specific type of wood, burn it in a specific way, and only then it is truly beneficial. But none of the biochar advocates agree on what these specific properties are.
I get great results without it. Maybe I would get better results if I also use biochar, I use kelp extract, I use humic acids. But I don't. I just get good ericaceous compost, good peat, good pine bark, and perlite. And mix that up with osmocote.
Lot's of unknowns here. And lots of reasons to think that us trying to manage this for nature often doesn't change anything. Yup, we also fertilize. The point of rhododendron & azalea and their EMF is that they live in acid nutrient poor thin soils on rocks that get a lot of rain. And that the EMF gives them the ability to scavenge nutrients that other plants aren't able to gather. But if you fertilize, it probably doesn't matter that much.
There's some papers on blueberries where they add EMF and they observe a significant improvement compared to their control, though.
I don't use biochar at all. I never understood the benefit. I watched some YT videos on Terra Preta, listened to the Hanlon podcast, scanned some review paper on it. I don't really get it, to be honest.
I almost want to just call it all 'charcoal' and call 'biochar' a myth. Sure, charcoal can play a role in a soil. But there's people claiming you need a specific type of wood, burn it in a specific way, and only then it is truly beneficial. But none of the biochar advocates agree on what these specific properties are.
I get great results without it. Maybe I would get better results if I also use biochar, I use kelp extract, I use humic acids. But I don't. I just get good ericaceous compost, good peat, good pine bark, and perlite. And mix that up with osmocote.
Last edited:
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
It took me quite a bit of time and research to come to grips with Biochar being a positive additive. There are a few instances where it would not be a positive I.e. alkaline soils. Yet overall has many positive benefits. Also has tested so well that we use biochar in almost all our mixes. Only one not tested yet is seedling mix.
Here is a decent review of the science due as of 2023
Cheers
DSD sends
.
Here is a decent review of the science due as of 2023
Cheers
DSD sends
.
Glaucus
Omono
That paper says: "Applying biochar to soil can create a favorable environment for the growth of plants and uptake of nutrients by improving both the physiochemical and biological properties of the soil, such as porosity, water infiltration, WHC, aggregate stability, bulk density, soil hardness, pH, cation exchange capacity, and nutrient cycling (Kavitha et al., 2018; Adekiya et al., 2020)."
Porosity, water infiltration, water holding capacity (WHC) aggregate stability, pH, CEC, are all fine in my current soil mix. I feel like the microbiology part of that paper is pretty thin. How much biochar do you add? It is like 1 to 5 percent, right? Many of these parameters will only be adjusted by 1 to 5%. I might try to see if there's a cheap source of suitable biochar and just add that because why not. But I am not really convinced. If biochar is really that good, why don't I use 30% of it? Let's say replace all or half of my perlite with it?
Or replacing the pine bark with charcoal from pine bark.
Microbes will have no issue living and growing on peat or pine bark in my mix.
Biochar could be a good way to improve poor soils for farming though. If your soil is really bad, putting in biochar could be a cheap option. Compared to amending a farm plot soil with something else.
Porosity, water infiltration, water holding capacity (WHC) aggregate stability, pH, CEC, are all fine in my current soil mix. I feel like the microbiology part of that paper is pretty thin. How much biochar do you add? It is like 1 to 5 percent, right? Many of these parameters will only be adjusted by 1 to 5%. I might try to see if there's a cheap source of suitable biochar and just add that because why not. But I am not really convinced. If biochar is really that good, why don't I use 30% of it? Let's say replace all or half of my perlite with it?
Or replacing the pine bark with charcoal from pine bark.
Microbes will have no issue living and growing on peat or pine bark in my mix.
Biochar could be a good way to improve poor soils for farming though. If your soil is really bad, putting in biochar could be a cheap option. Compared to amending a farm plot soil with something else.
Last edited:
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Believe Karen O’Halon recommended no more than 10% Biochar for bonsai. We routinely use 5%. David DeGroot said he uses 14% … kind of an odd number?
Wakefield product we have says 5-10%, not marketed for bonsai.
Our bag didn’t say anything about mycorrhizae. Likely the company makes several products,
Honestly, if you are happy with what the results are in your field, why change… but would be a great place for a field test!
Best
DSD sends
Wakefield product we have says 5-10%, not marketed for bonsai.
Our bag didn’t say anything about mycorrhizae. Likely the company makes several products,
Honestly, if you are happy with what the results are in your field, why change… but would be a great place for a field test!
Best
DSD sends
The tag appears to have been printed in 1989 but she received the plant as a gift from a friend some time in the 90’s.
This azalea has done well so far this season. I ended up deciding to just go for it with regards to cut back and reduced the plant to 4 trunks (I know the Bonsai gods will be furious with that number) and reduced all branching to pairs. It began pushing new growth in the beginning of August and continues to do so. I still have not really formulated a definite plan but I find the tree pleasant to look at anyway. As much as I’d love to see flowers next spring I think I will be removing buds as the swell next year to really push the energy towards foliage creation.
Pics to follow…
Also, does anyone have any further info on this hybrid? I found this blurb on azaleas.com but information is very limited they don’t even know who was responsible for creating this cultivar.
This azalea has done well so far this season. I ended up deciding to just go for it with regards to cut back and reduced the plant to 4 trunks (I know the Bonsai gods will be furious with that number) and reduced all branching to pairs. It began pushing new growth in the beginning of August and continues to do so. I still have not really formulated a definite plan but I find the tree pleasant to look at anyway. As much as I’d love to see flowers next spring I think I will be removing buds as the swell next year to really push the energy towards foliage creation.
Pics to follow…
Also, does anyone have any further info on this hybrid? I found this blurb on azaleas.com but information is very limited they don’t even know who was responsible for creating this cultivar.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
Nope. Galle says Glory was likely developed outside of Japan.
Glory strong yellowish pink, hose in hose, darker blotch, 1 1/4” bloom may be same a Blaau’s Pink.
The year is winding down an a cut back, as long as it is properly sealed, should be fine given the tree is properly handled. The consequences are losing energy from expected fall storage, and having the tree senescent for a long time before the growing season, thus putting it a risk for damage from infection and the cold temperatures in your neck of the woods during the next six months. That the reason we normally like to wait.
Only input I have is it is best to have at least the start of a path planned before taking out the saw or pruners. Four trunks could look good, depending on which four.
Cheers
DSD sends
Glory strong yellowish pink, hose in hose, darker blotch, 1 1/4” bloom may be same a Blaau’s Pink.
The year is winding down an a cut back, as long as it is properly sealed, should be fine given the tree is properly handled. The consequences are losing energy from expected fall storage, and having the tree senescent for a long time before the growing season, thus putting it a risk for damage from infection and the cold temperatures in your neck of the woods during the next six months. That the reason we normally like to wait.
Only input I have is it is best to have at least the start of a path planned before taking out the saw or pruners. Four trunks could look good, depending on which four.
Cheers
DSD sends
That work was all done at the same time as the root washing a couple months back. The root work, repot into better soil and pruning was all done at the same time at the beginning of July. No more work done this year and probably not next either aside from bud pruning.
Deep Sea Diver
Imperial Masterpiece
That’s great. Haven’t seen an image since. Can you post a couple three when you’ve time?
Cheers
DSD sends
Cheers
DSD sends
