Big Elm

[Beanwagon]

Just got this large elm today from a local bonsai show. I figured it has potential for the future and will be good for me to practice pad development and overall refinemnt.

Any tips/critiques would be appreciated

 

[music~maker]

I would let this get really shaggy, then use the new growth to form a canopy. Shorten anything that you want to prune at first, don't outright remove anything lightly. Wire the canopy in place, maybe do a light trim, then let it get shaggy again and repeat the process. You should be able to build a really nice canopy out of this if you focus more on growing than pruning.

I find the pads to be a bit of an odd design choice since elms don't really grow this way in nature, at least not the ones near me. But because of the very refined pads, you have a tons of options for growing this out if you want to. Even if you like the pads, at least let them get a little shaggy and see how it looks. It will keep the tree nice and healthy by doing that in any case, but then you get to see what it likes in a more natural form. You can probably make it look a bit more natural if you let it grow out and then edit out some of the extraneous branches.

Beautiful starting point - this will be a fun one to work on.

 

[defra]

Hmmm
Ill be honest
I dont like the way its styled at all
Branches are placed like its a pine and the pads look like pom pom's

Still its a tree wich could become nice with time and the right decisions allong the way

 

[just.wing.it]

Lots of hate out there these days for deciduous trees styled as pines...I don't mind them, they're still art to me, even if they don't look like what God intended.
Looks like fun!
Apex definitely needs some attention...I'd consider layering the top off and selling it as topiary....
Then build a new apex that is in the same atmospheric realm as the rest of the tree.
The whole tree needs to tighten up a bit.

 

[sorce]

practice pad development

Where $ is involved.....

I think you can simply look at this tree, understand how NEVER to make pads...
And walk away with $ in pocket and all the education you need.

Now....
If it was free....and just plopped in the ground to be as easy as possible to care for, and toyed with for learning....sure.

But.....
It's an elm...not much to learn. Alternate buds, inevitable backbudding, superchoppable.

At that I'd look for a better specimen.

But....
It's an elm.

So fuck practice!

Chop that bitch and make a good tree!

Or I will shoot my cannon far far south!

Sorce

 

[Fishtank307]

I think it needs to be smaller in the future. The new leader is a bit too thin right now imo, so I would chop/layer it and form a new apex around the chop. Then let it grow freely for at least a year, hope for some new growth on the lower part of the trunk, select branches and start from there. A long process, but rewarding in the end The trunk looks mature and it has a decent flare at the roots!

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Let it grow! It has a workable base and a bit of taper. Branches need to be allowed to rise up and get twiggy. That will start to happen if you let it grow for a year or two.

 

[Zach Smith]

I think this can be a great tree to learn restyling on. Obviously the transition point at the chop shouts at you, so you'll need to cut the leader back to encourage vegetative growth in a new one in order to make that transition look smoother. The pom-poms need to go, but you can prune them hard and recreate the branches. As for the "pine-tree" style for a deciduous tree, well, no one ever complains about all the junipers styled as pine trees versus their natural growth habit so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[ColinFraser]

Everyone’s been so nice by subtly hinting at a redesign, but I’ll come right out with it. This is bad. Like, really bad. A major restyle is the way to go . . . or a chop as @sorce suggests.
This is exactly what happens when people do “pad development and overall refinement” to a tree without first having set a good structure.

 

[ColinFraser]

So, @Beanwagon here are some general principles to consider . . .

Branch size & Placement - lowest branch should be thickest and longest, getting thinner and shorter as you go higher. Branches farther spaced near the base, closer together as you move toward the apex. Your tree has one tiny branch really low, several VERY thick branches clumped together in the middle, and a long branchless "neck" before the apex.

Taper - Both trunk and branches look best if they taper. Your lower trunk has a little bit of taper, but it was chopped only once in development, and a long fairly taperless section was grown on top of that. Similarly, the branches are mostly single tubes - ideally they would fork closer to the trunk, moving, tapering, and ramifying as you move toward the tips.

Roots - the big ones crawling around on top of the soil probably should go . . .

Restyling this tree could actually teach you a lot more about bonsai than “pad development and overall refinement," so I say go for it!

Edit: the general ideas I've mentioned here are a facet of what some consider the "rules" of bonsai. Sure, those guidelines can and should be broken occasionally . . . for intentional artistic reasons, not to justify substandard trees

 

[sorce]

This is exactly what happens when people do “pad development and overall refinement” to a tree without first having set a good structure

Yes....no reason to attempt a continuation of it.

Sure, those guidelines can and should be broken occasionally . . . for intentional artistic reasons, not to justify substandard trees

Usually I can tell myself a story that makes any tree believable...
And we are talking about some effed up trees.

This one doesn't seem as effed up, but I can't tell a story for this one anywhere.

Such is the deception of poorly tuned Future Vision Goggles.

Not that Bean has poorly tuned FVG'S.

It's just the nature of the beast, the deception.

Sorce

 

[Beanwagon]

I was not expecting so many replies. Thanks everybody.

Ok i guess i should clarify. Most of the negatives that people raised with this tree i agree with.
I didnt adress it in my 1st post but i also bought it thinking that i would more than likely end up air laying this to make 2 or 3 tree's.
I could easily leave it in its current style and get enjoyment out of it.
But as mentioned this tree has some flaws that i can adress that will increase my skill/knowledge so i see it as a fun project.

Ultimately i am still undecided. The tree definitely looks a lot better in person. So i will probably spent a few months+ studying the tree coming up with a plan of attack.

 

[Beanwagon]

Some more pictures.

 

[sorce]

Ok ok damn!

That last view looks nice minus that root!

Seems they styled it for years from one direction.
It actually looks good from there.

But Damn....you still got a lot of work to do!

Now I'm really looking forward to you working this out.

Slay the sayers of nay!
Myself included!

Sorce

 

[Beanwagon]

One option i an considering is to combine the ebihara method

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ebihara-maples.18215/

With this base/trunk thickening technique




So long story short i would split the trunk and then screw it to a board. I would clean up the big ugly roots along the way.

I understand this is a drastic method that could ruin the base. It also could create a unique vase with character and increase taper.

What do you guys think?

 

[music~maker]

One option i an considering is to combine the ebihara method

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/ebihara-maples.18215/

With this base/trunk thickening technique


View attachment 166881 View attachment 166882 View attachment 166883

So long story short i would split the trunk and then screw it to a board. I would clean up the big ugly roots along the way.

I understand this is a drastic method that could ruin the base. It also could create a unique vase with character and increase taper.

What do you guys think?

You would do this to the base of your elm?? No way! The base isn't the big problem with this tree, it's those pads. Or do you mean to take a cutting and use this method on that? Either way, my best recommendation would be to put down the weapons of mass destruction and let this thing grow out. =)

 

[Beanwagon]

You would do this to the base of your elm?? No way! The base isn't the big problem with this tree, it's those pads. Or do you mean to take a cutting and use this method on that? Either way, my best recommendation would be to put down the weapons of mass destruction and let this thing grow out. =)

Haha yes i would. I am destructive and enjoy risk taking. That is just one of the options i am weighing up and definitely the most extreme.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

What do you guys think?

I think it will destroy this tree’s chances for becoming a decent bonsai in your lifetime, even if you are 20; because the wounds you’d create will never heal convincingly, if at all. It’s more likely to result in rot and massive dieback. Because it’s not my money, I hope that you proceed; so long as you update this thread and we can see how illustrations like that translate to reality. Because it is your money, I hope it works and I’m flat wrong.

 

[Beanwagon]

I think it will destroy this tree’s chances for becoming a decent bonsai in your lifetime, even if you are 20; because the wounds you’d create will never heal convincingly, if at all. It’s more likely to result in rot and massive dieback. Because it’s not my money, I hope that you proceed; so long as you update this thread and we can see how illustrations like that translate to reality. Because it is your money, I hope it works and I’m flat wrong.

My idea would be to incorporate the wound into the design. Like you see in nature, where a hollow has formed in the base if a trunk. As i said it is one of ny options. In the meantime i will wait a year to study the tree.

 

[Beanwagon]

Out of curiosity how much would you guys pay/value this tree?