Big Dawn Redwood Chop from Nursery Stock

[andrewiles]

I don't have firsthand knowledge of the reasons, but it's probably a combination of economics and tree health. Many cultivars, esp. dwarfs and those derived from witches brooms, don't do well on their own roots. By grafting onto a seedling rootstock of the plain species you get a healthier, more vigorous plant for the nursery trade. And once you have the infrastructure set up to do that for some of your inventory you might as well do it for almost all, rather than testing which cultivars are OK on their own roots -- which can take several years.

In addition, given that grafting is so widespread, it may have higher initial success rates, and thus lower cost, than growing from cuttings.

Finally, many cultivars may not come true from seed, meaning you could not propagate a named cultivar -- or at least market it as such -- through sexual reproduction. Japanese maples are well known for this variability, hence the 1000+ cultivars on the market. Outside of bonsai nurseries you will never see a named acer palmatum cultivar on its own roots.

Here's an example of the graft junction on a gold rush I have. It's not useable as a bonsai tree, but the top can be used for air layers and cuttings of the cultivar, and the bottom can eventually become a specimen of the plain species.

 

[cbrshadow23]

I don't have firsthand knowledge of the reasons, but it's probably a combination of economics and tree health. Many cultivars, esp. dwarfs and those derived from witches brooms, don't do well on their own roots. By grafting onto a seedling rootstock of the plain species you get a healthier, more vigorous plant for the nursery trade. And once you have the infrastructure set up to do that for some of your inventory you might as well do it for almost all, rather than testing which cultivars are OK on their own roots -- which can take several years.

In addition, given that grafting is so widespread, it may have higher initial success rates, and thus lower cost, than growing from cuttings.

Finally, many cultivars may not come true from seed, meaning you could not propagate a named cultivar -- or at least market it as such -- through sexual reproduction. Japanese maples are well known for this variability, hence the 1000+ cultivars on the market. Outside of bonsai nurseries you will never see a named acer palmatum cultivar on its own roots.

Here's an example of the graft junction on a gold rush I have. It's not useable as a bonsai tree, but the top can be used for air layers and cuttings of the cultivar, and the bottom can eventually become a specimen of the plain species.

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That makes sense.Thank you for the explanation!

 

[cbrshadow23]

I don't have firsthand knowledge of the reasons, but it's probably a combination of economics and tree health. Many cultivars, esp. dwarfs and those derived from witches brooms, don't do well on their own roots. By grafting onto a seedling rootstock of the plain species you get a healthier, more vigorous plant for the nursery trade. And once you have the infrastructure set up to do that for some of your inventory you might as well do it for almost all, rather than testing which cultivars are OK on their own roots -- which can take several years.

In addition, given that grafting is so widespread, it may have higher initial success rates, and thus lower cost, than growing from cuttings.

Finally, many cultivars may not come true from seed, meaning you could not propagate a named cultivar -- or at least market it as such -- through sexual reproduction. Japanese maples are well known for this variability, hence the 1000+ cultivars on the market. Outside of bonsai nurseries you will never see a named acer palmatum cultivar on its own roots.

Here's an example of the graft junction on a gold rush I have. It's not useable as a bonsai tree, but the top can be used for air layers and cuttings of the cultivar, and the bottom can eventually become a specimen of the plain species.

View attachment 508363

I found a few Gold Rush DR's at a wholesale nursery nearby. I looked closely for the graft point, but couldn't find it. It must be lower on the trunk (below the ropes/bag) where I couldn't see. The bark did look similar to regular DR's though. Is it possible this one isn't grafted, or are they all definitely grafted?

 

[cbrshadow23]

Here's one tree I'm thinking I'll buy, assuming it's still available in the early Spring. They have it listed as 4" diameter but it's closer to 8" and it looks like it widens further below the soil. Is it likely these trees get significantly wider (more taper) under the visible area?

 

[Cajunrider]

Here's one tree I'm thinking I'll buy, assuming it's still available in the early Spring. They have it listed as 4" diameter but it's closer to 8" and it looks like it widens further below the soil. Is it likely these trees get significantly wider (more taper) under the visible area?
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For landscape tree, the tree caliper is the diameter of the tree at breast height (4.5-5 ft from soil level). On trees with decent flare, you can have significant size trunk. For us bonsai people, our tree seldom get to breast height, the caliper of the trunk to me is the trunk diameter where the root flare stops. Other may differ but that is how I think of bonsai trunk diameter. Other measurement that is important to me is the root flare diameter based on the portion of the tree that can be above soil level.

 

[rockm]

Here's one tree I'm thinking I'll buy, assuming it's still available in the early Spring. They have it listed as 4" diameter but it's closer to 8" and it looks like it widens further below the soil. Is it likely these trees get significantly wider (more taper) under the visible area?
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HA! THAT, my friend, is going to be one heavy SOB and extremely difficult to move before and after chopping, which will be quite a circus at the nursery or at your house. That's probably going to require a fork lift to move at the nursery. It's also just big. Virtually no taper at all in the first few feet of trunk. That would put me off of this one.

FWIW, There are consequences of having big trees. I don't know if you have any this big, but big trees are spectacularly more expensive than a relatively smaller ones. Pots, soil, tools, are all more expensive because they're all bigger. I own a few trees about that size. They are physically challenging to move, repot and care for.

I have several big trees in a "finished" bonsai pots. Once weighs about 160 lbs. Their pots are between 24" - 30" by six to four inches deep. They can use ten gallons of soil at repotting. Repotting big trees is an art unto itself--Doing it by yourself, you will likely damage the tree, possibly severely (not now, but down the road after you've been working it for a while.) Pinching and caring for large trees while they're on the benches or stands requires a stepladder sometimes, as the apex branches can be juuust out of reach. Leaning and stretching into a large tree while pruning or trimming it can lead to disasters for the tree and for you.

 

[cbrshadow23]

HA! THAT, my friend, is going to be one heavy SOB and extremely difficult to move before and after chopping, which will be quite a circus at the nursery or at your house. That's probably going to require a fork lift to move at the nursery. It's also just big. Virtually no taper at all in the first few feet of trunk. That would put me off of this one.

FWIW, There are consequences of having big trees. I don't know if you have any this big, but big trees are spectacularly more expensive than a relatively smaller ones. Pots, soil, tools, are all more expensive because they're all bigger. I own a few trees about that size. They are physically challenging to move, repot and care for.

I have several big trees in a "finished" bonsai pots. Once weighs about 160 lbs. Their pots are between 24" - 30" by six to four inches deep. They can use ten gallons of soil at repotting. Repotting big trees is an art unto itself--Doing it by yourself, you will likely damage the tree, possibly severely (not now, but down the road after you've been working it for a while.) Pinching and caring for large trees while they're on the benches or stands requires a stepladder sometimes, as the apex branches can be juuust out of reach. Leaning and stretching into a large tree while pruning or trimming it can lead to disasters for the tree and for you.

All fair points! I have had lots of big collected trees in the past; Bougainvillea, Coast Redwoods, Wisteria and a few others. I definitely hear you on the point that it's more work and more expensive. I was shocked at how expensive soil became on my big bougainvilleas. At one point I had 4 trees that I couldn't lift on my own, forget doing repotting on my own.
Still, I think big trees are more impressive. The photo of the one above is hard to tell but there is some taper in this trunk. I'm thinking through a chop and regrow or some carving I can create more taper. Also I've never seen a big dawn redwood without lots of taper at its base, so I'm thinking there will be more taper at the bottom of the tree below what is visible in the photos. I'll confirm that before buying the tree (assuming it's still available in the Spring). They have 20 or so around this same size to pick from

 

[rockm]

All fair points! I have had lots of big collected trees in the past; Bougainvillea, Coast Redwoods, Wisteria and a few others. I definitely hear you on the point that it's more work and more expensive. I was shocked at how expensive soil became on my big bougainvilleas. At one point I had 4 trees that I couldn't lift on my own, forget doing repotting on my own.
Still, I think big trees are more impressive. The photo of the one above is hard to tell but there is some taper in this trunk. I'm thinking through a chop and regrow or some carving I can create more taper. Also I've never seen a big dawn redwood without lots of taper at its base, so I'm thinking there will be more taper at the bottom of the tree below what is visible in the photos. I'll confirm that before buying the tree (assuming it's still available in the Spring). They have 20 or so around this same size to pick from

Bottom line, that's the real issue with this tree.

Growing out a leader to get even close to the diameter of the trunk will take a very long time. Inevitably, the options for these kinds of trees is creating a hollowed out lightning struck looking trunk, which can be effective. It can also look plain weird. In any case, I'd invest in an angle grinder or something similar

Big trees are more impressive and they become even more impressive (in terms of their ability to throw out your back) when you're over 60 and you have to move them into overwintering quarters and back out again in the spring.

 

[andrewiles]

I found a few Gold Rush DR's at a wholesale nursery nearby. I looked closely for the graft point, but couldn't find it. It must be lower on the trunk (below the ropes/bag) where I couldn't see. The bark did look similar to regular DR's though. Is it possible this one isn't grafted, or are they all definitely grafted?

Gold Rush seems viable on its own roots, so perhaps the ones you see there are not grafted. That would be awesome. The nursery owner would probably know. We have nothing that big up here.

It probably does widen further, though these are field grown so they may have grown large taproots rather than extensive lateral roots, which cause that flare.

Repeating what others have said: I don't know what your bonsai background is, but one thing to consider before you buy is what exactly you'll do with such a massive, straight trunk. A chop and deadwood carving for sure, but you'll have your work cut out for you. Since this species grows so fast you might have more future design options with a smaller trunk

 

[snowman04]

It looks like a beautiful tree but just because you can put it in a pot, does it really make it worthy of bonsai? Just saying...

 

[cbrshadow23]

I hear you that not all big trees are suitable for bonsai. It seems like everyone has a different idea of what bonsai means to them, or a different idea of what size project they want to take on. I'm willing to deal with moving a big tree, willing to carve and wait for growth etc.
For example, I collected the big bougie trunk below a couple years ago and EVERYONE said I'm wasting my time with it. "What will you do with that big ugly stump?". The last photo was taken after defoliation/wiring just before I had to sell it due to moving across the country. I would have loved to continue to develop the tree though, and it sold for top dollar. My point is that being big or ugly doesn't disqualify a tree from being potential bonsai.
Clearly that's a different species, and I'm not super familiar with Dawn Redwood so I'm still learning on that front. I'm not looking to waste time on a tree that will never be nice looking, but if there's some potential on these big DR's I'm happy to take them on as a project.

 

[rockm]

I hear you that not all big trees are suitable for bonsai. It seems like everyone has a different idea of what bonsai means to them, or a different idea of what size project they want to take on. I'm willing to deal with moving a big tree, willing to carve and wait for growth etc.
For example, I collected the big bougie trunk below a couple years ago and EVERYONE said I'm wasting my time with it. "What will you do with that big ugly stump?". The last photo was taken after defoliation/wiring just before I had to sell it due to moving across the country. I would have loved to continue to develop the tree though, and it sold for top dollar. My point is that being big or ugly doesn't disqualify a tree from being potential bonsai.
Clearly that's a different species, and I'm not super familiar with Dawn Redwood so I'm still learning on that front. I'm not looking to waste time on a tree that will never be nice looking, but if there's some potential on these big DR's I'm happy to take them on as a project.


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There's a lot of difference in this bougainvillea and the DR (very VERY nice bougie BTW--whoever told you it was a waste of time didn't know what they were talking about). The value in that bougie trunk is obvious, much movement low down and building an apex on it doesn't rely on a single leader. None of that is true for the DR, for the most part--straight trunk, no taper to mention really, even if there is flare under the dirt. That complicates the design of the tree.

I'm currently working with a Bald Cypress about the same size pictured below (thanks @Cajunrider). It some of the same issues. I have an idea where I'm going to go with it, but it's still a work in my head at this point. I've got a smaller BC (relatively, its about two thirds the size of the one in the photo.) I've regrown the apex on that one. Took ten years and three more trunk chops to get there. The larger the tree, the longer that process will take. I don't have DR so I can't really compare growth from experience, but BC is very quick in development.

Big for the sake of big is OK, but big with better taper is better...

 

[andrewiles]

I would love to see a progression starting with a chop of that DR. Just trying to provide useful feedback. It's not that big is bad. The bougie is big. But it's also interesting. And it's a great piece of material. The DR trunk is big. But it's comparatively uninteresting. So it'll be a harder lift than the bougie.

<gah. @rockm ninja'd me>

 

[cbrshadow23]

There's a lot of difference in this bougainvillea and the DR (very VERY nice bougie BTW--whoever told you it was a waste of time didn't know what they were talking about). The value in that bougie trunk is obvious, much movement low down and building an apex on it doesn't rely on a single leader. None of that is true for the DR, for the most part--straight trunk, no taper to mention really, even if there is flare under the dirt. That complicates the design of the tree.

I'm currently working with a Bald Cypress about the same size pictured below (thanks @Cajunrider). It some of the same issues. I have an idea where I'm going to go with it, but it's still a work in my head at this point. I've got a smaller BC (relatively, its about two thirds the size of the one in the photo.) I've regrown the apex on that one. Took ten years and three more trunk chops to get there. The larger the tree, the longer that process will take. I don't have DR so I can't really compare growth from experience, but BC is very quick in development.

Big for the sake of big is OK, but big with better taper is better...

All good points, I appreciate your input. I think your bald cypress is fantastic and would love to get one similar. I have a similarly shaped and sized Coast Redwood (picture below). It was collected and carved by someone else a while back, but I've made some little tweaks. I ended up collecting 15 or so simliar coast redwoods with plans to carve them, but the cross-country move changed those plans. I do have lots of carving tools, die grinders and dremels and specialty bits though.
Keep us posted on what you do with that big boy.

 

[snowman04]

All good points, I appreciate your input. I think your bald cypress is fantastic and would love to get one similar. I have a similarly shaped and sized Coast Redwood (picture below). It was collected and carved by someone else a while back, but I've made some little tweaks. I ended up collecting 15 or so simliar coast redwoods with plans to carve them, but the cross-country move changed those plans. I do have lots of carving tools, die grinders and dremels and specialty bits though.
Keep us posted on what you do with that big boy.

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Very nice!!!