Better than "good enough"

[wireme]

No. Surely not!
(hey at least some folks are admitting not reading the article!)

Seriously though....that helped me see that I have my own flaw there...in letting ANYTHING die, just to get an image...I can do better.

I guess that makes it quite the opposite.

It's like me saying it's ok for some tips to brown...it's not, I can do better.

It's more about letting trees be ugly, running that sacrifice out, starting them over, or even just getting rid of them all together!

It kinda all boils right back down to patience.
Now....is good enough....
Waiting the ten years it should take..
That is "your best".

@Paradox I appreciate the honesty.
Honestly....you are one of the "whole" people anyway!

As opposed to someone like me who is as crooked as the day is long!

Sorce

Reading? I clicked on the links and read the first and last words of each paragraph, that's good enough isn't it?

 

[wireme]

Damn! You snapped!

Sorce

Hell yeah man, I totally snapped!
Uh, maybe I guess. Anyone got a babel fish I can borrow?

 

[coh]

Will Heath seemed to have it all figured out. Whatever happened to him? Is he still doing bonsai?

 

[Vance Wood]

I figure good enough is good enough for lots of tree depending on the stage of development. Sometimes better and maybe can enable a person to have more trees.
Not that I'm against doing whatever you do the best you can, that's gotta be good. Striving for the best image all the time though? Maybe not so good for the trees.

Here's a little teaser, my tree for your contest (that's allowed isn't it?). This is what I would have called the good enough state. Would normally have stopped there, or sooner, good enough. I subjected myself and the tree to go beyond good enough, tried to.
Good practice for me no doubt, totally useless for future development of the tree in my opinion. View attachment 119591
Contest entry should be up soon.

It should be remembered that good enough may be lazy but far enough may be safer. Here again the problem with on line contests often end in dead trees, and I know this has nothing to do with this article. I wrote the article quoted along with Will's article at about the same time. Will was a friend of mine and I still consider him one but because of some of the destructive behavior of some of the people on this forum he has left this forum and not publicly involved in bonsai. I will say nothing more about him at this time. After many years of contemplation I have come to the realization that my brain has many wrinkles but my ass has but one crack.

 

[MichaelS]

Knowledge of Self is an Advanced Topic.
It is hard to point out your own flaws, really dive in and think about WHO you are.
It becomes easier to find and better yourself, once you become aware of flaws you didn't know existed.

I would like everyone to participate seriously in this thread.
I believe it will enhance ourselves, our community here, and our trees.

I read these articles the other day, and they put a lot of stuff into perspective for me, and they should for you too.

This is an Article by Will Heath.
http://www.artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3088
"The problem with Bonsai Forums"

Who are you?

I...am quite Social...but I take Bonsai seriously.

This thread title...which I hope he caught...is about what Vance talks about in his article...
http://artofbonsai.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=930
"The problem with American Bonsai"

Who are you?

This morning...I thought about how much work I have to do in spring.
So much work that there is no way in hell I would do it if I wanted "good enough".

You've seen where I hang out at work, 20 stories up a high rise hanging on a rig we built.
When it's time for a safety check, my guy always talks about how much bad shit happens if you go with "good enough". People die if that stuff is "good enough".

Maybe that's why I understand how "good enough" is just not enough.

My time is not worth less than my very best.


Please read the articles and reflect.

Tell us who you are.

How can you get better?

I hope this reflection can take a couple folks from "good enough", to outstanding, and make this great place a little better.

Life is Short.

Make the most of it.

Thanks!

Sorce

I agree with your basic sentiments Sorce. The real problem (if you want to call it a problem) is that the majority of practitioners will never achieve much more than they do now. Or to put it another way, there will always be a majority who do not achieve a high quality. It's not laziness, it is lack of inspiration. And it's not lack of inspiration due to lack of exposure, it is simply a diversity of mindsets. Some just don't ''see'' what needs to be seen. Most don't see. That was brought home to me once more on the weekend when we had our annual exhibition. There were maybe 10 (probably fewer) good quality, inspired bonsai with clear direction and without the glaring faults of the other hundred or whatever. It has always been this way because of course there is no qualification for entry but it's a general reflection of the sate of things world wide. Those lesser quality bonsai are no doubt seen by their owners as being of a higher quality than they really are and no one is going to tell them otherwise either.
Everyone that takes up the bonsai pursuit cannot be a master and produce masterpieces or even potential masterpieces. If I were to guess at a percentage, I would say maybe one or two in a thousand will rise to those heights. The rest will be an assortment of works varying from excellent to disastrous. If you can't see that your ''good'' work is not ''good enough'' when compared to a superior work as judged by superior eyes, then you are doomed to remain static. And that is exactly where most people will remain.
IN a practical sense, I think one very important reason for this is that most people work on their trees to reach as ''pleasing to their eyes'' a result as possible right then and there. In my opinion, that is a big mistake and one which leads to mediocrity because of compounding flaws piling up on themselves year after year after year. These mistakes or problems (if they are even recognised that is) should be attended to in the present. If you continue with that attitude, the future will bring you the results you are looking for naturally.
One reason for this ''get it done now'' mindset is I believe the endless procession of celebrity demonstrators wowing their audiences by turning ''nothing'' into ''something'' right before their eyes. I am now of the opinion that this kind of demonstration is entertainment at best and counterproductive at worst. In truth, bonsai are built very slowly year by year and almost no one has the kind of carefully selected material used for the ''show''
I say, forget about todays image, always work for tomorrow's image! Impatience leads to rubbish. It cannot be any other way......
So, yes, good enough is not good enough. (if you care)

 

[Anthony]

A question - How does one achieve High Quality.

[1] Study and apply Soil Science for Health [ Chemistry / Biology / Physics ]
[2] Study and apply Fine Art principles for Design.

Here's the real problem ------------------ Most folk won't study and usually think they have it all [ especially in the Design part ] naturally.

Now oh reader look into your heart and is this you ............................................

Is this what Sorce was asking about ?

This is a hobby and as such, usually a Bonsai book will suffice, and if you have the money, buy a finished tree and have fun.

The problem is why put so much effort into impermanence ????????????????
Good Day
Anthony

 

[sorce]

The problem is why put so much effort into impermanence ????????????????

Our Permanators!
Our children! Our Nicks!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

If you can't see that your ''good'' work is not ''good enough'' when compared to a superior work as judged by superior eyes, then you are doomed to remain static.

I think that is a big problem...
That and the fact that we see more mallsai than anything else...and it becomes "correct" in our minds.

Any shrub will look better when it is styled than it did before...
But does it look better than something Great?

I think a lot of "good enough" settles in because of this phenomenon.

Sorce

 

[Vance Wood]

Sometimes some work on a shrub can be worse than doung nothing; I have seen it done. Many years ago there was an incident of that around here where a really good piece of nursery grown nursery material totally butchered and essentially destroyed. The tree would have been better off being left alone. A couple of us privately called this an example of reverse styling.

As to watching masterpiece demonstrations? I know that the current trend in thinking seems to celebrate the idea which says this is nothing more than entertainment? I highly disagree with this marginally destructive point of view. At one point something about inspiration was discussed. The problem is determining where this insplration comes from?

The positive aspect is simple if you take time to look with unbiased eyes. You see before you an impossible piece of material that right before your eyes is turned into a beautiful bonsai. The reaction should not end with wow, holy smokes, that was amazing. Your action should be I know this can be done so how do I go about doing this? If you have the courage and determination to ask this question it should not be a giant step to believe Yes I can do tnis. One hint: The inspiration may come to you in the middle of the night but the technical ability will not, that has to be acquired by sometimes hard work and study.

 

[Vance Wood]

Sometimes some work on a shrub can be worse than doung nothing; I have seen it done. Many years ago there was an incident of that around here where a really good piece of nursery grown nursery material totally butchered and essentially destroyed. The tree would have been better off being left alone. A couple of us privately called this an example of reverse styling.

As to watching masterpiece demonstrations? I know that the current trend in thinking seems to celebrate the idea which says this is nothing more than entertainment? I highly disagree with this marginally destructive point of view. At one point something about inspiration was discussed. The problem is determining where this insplration comes from?

The positive aspect is simple if you take time to look with unbiased eyes. You see before you an impossible piece of material that right before your eyes is turned into a beautiful bonsai. The reaction should not end with wow, holy smokes, that was amazing. Your action should be I know this can be done so how do I go about doing this? If you have the courage and determination to ask this question it should not be a giant step to believe Yes I can do tnis. One hint: The inspiration may come to you in the middle of the night but the technical ability will not, that has to be acquired by sometimes hard work and study.

Understanding that I cannot now edit my own post I wish to add a couple of things without having to explaine why I am adding stuff or give it reference. Some people will be happy with bonsai at the hobby level, at least that is the argument. However I find it difficult to believe that many people claiming to be at this level would choose to stay there if shown that it is possible to grow beyond that point. Almost no one will publicly say "I am happy creating real crappy bonsai, that is my purpose in life". It may be that one could take the stand that "I create bonsai at this level because I don't have the time or desire to grow beyond this level". BUT!!!! would you not want to grow better bonsai if the reason you do not now do so, could be pointed out to you, and you could correct it exercising less effort than you are currently exhausting to achieve what you are now enjoying? In short, more miles per gallon if bonsai was a car. Think about it; if you played piano, and really liked it, would you not like to play Chopin instead of Chopsticks?

For many years it was always sold to us that all great bonsai are many years old. This is only part of the argument. It is suggested that these trees have been in training for hundreds of years, and this too can be true but, it has only recently in the last twenty years or so that the concept of how bonsai are created from mature and collected material have been documented. Mostly through the efforts and demonstrations of masters like Ryan Neil and a host of Japanese masters who are finally sharing the truth, and teaching classes, the lie that when you start bonsai will take a lifetime to master and even longer to make a decent tree so don't even try to go beyond the Sticks in Pots stage.

 

[Anthony]

Sorce and Vance,

no matter what you do - old age / mature - features on Bonsai happen after 8 to 10 years.

So you can ground grow, get the trunk/root and branches / branchlets, it won't look old until it has
passed the years.
Frankly I am not sure where this conversation can go. If you want old looking Bonsai
you could just buy it.

Or just enjoy the years and your effort.

Depends on your personality.

Want to show off, then just buy a good specimen.

I guess it comes down to as you age, and you start to look for achievements.
We have lots of folk down here who try to buy achievements.
Cross 50 and look back, see nothing, get upset, try to buy your way out of the emptiness.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Vance Wood]

Sorce and Vance,

no matter what you do - old age / mature - features on Bonsai happen after 8 to 10 years.

So you can ground grow, get the trunk/root and branches / branchlets, it won't look old until it has
passed the years.
Frankly I am not sure where this conversation can go. If you want old looking Bonsai
you could just buy it.

Or just enjoy the years and your effort.

Depends on your personality.

Want to show off, then just buy a good specimen.

I guess it comes down to as you age, and you start to look for achievements.
We have lots of folk down here who try to buy achievements.
Cross 50 and look back, see nothing, get upset, try to buy your way out of the emptiness.
Good Day
Anthony

That kind of shows how one can be comfortable in a sense of mediocrity in expressing a lazzyness of talent. It's kind of like saying "I know I can do better but WTF, I just don't want to take the time". "So I'll just make excuses for my lack of accomplishment." Who in God's Green Earth loves bonsai so much as to spend thousands of dollars to buy a bonsai of the quality worthy of being called showing off? The only way "Showing Off" rises to the level of showing off is if you/they claim the tree artistically and in every other way is their own work. Then it would be that it is their work and accomplishment they wish to show off and the tree is but the vehicle. Lacking any sort of accomplishment anywhere else they chose bonsai. I don't see this. After the national show I realize that almost everybody there was engaged in the practice of building on the work or efforts of others, and no one cares. In the end it is about the tree but I still hold one simple fact. If it were not for the artist there would be no artistic bonsai, there would be no advanced techniques they discover allowing us lesser creatures the ability to create artistic bonsai, and in the end there would be not bonsai at all. We would have to resort to meddow muffins, cow pies and road apples.

 

[Adair M]

Understanding that I cannot now edit my own post I wish to add a couple of things without having to explaine why I am adding stuff or give it reference. Some people will be happy with bonsai at the hobby level, at least that is the argument. However I find it difficult to believe that many people claiming to be at this level would choose to stay there if shown that it is possible to grow beyond that point. Almost no one will publicly say "I am happy creating real crappy bonsai, that is my purpose in life". It may be that one could take the stand that "I create bonsai at this level because I don't have the time or desire to grow beyond this level". BUT!!!! would you not want to grow better bonsai if the reason you do not now do so, could be pointed out to you, and you could correct it exercising less effort than you are currently exhausting to achieve what you are now enjoying? In short, more miles per gallon if bonsai was a car. Think about it; if you played piano, and really liked it, would you not like to play Chopin instead of Chopsticks?

For many years it was always sold to us that all great bonsai are many years old. This is only part of the argument. It is suggested that these trees have been in training for hundreds of years, and this too can be true but, it has only recently in the last twenty years or so that the concept of how bonsai are created from mature and collected material have been documented. Mostly through the efforts and demonstrations of masters like Ryan Neil and a host of Japanese masters who are finally sharing the truth, and teaching classes, the lie that when you start bonsai will take a lifetime to master and even longer to make a decent tree so don't even try to go beyond the Sticks in Pots stage.

Vance,

The benefit of starting with yamadori is the yamadori already has the old bark, the larger trunk and/or the wildly twisted and contorted trunk that takes decades if not centuries to produce.

So, starting with ancient collected material is cheating in a way, is it not? Sure maybe the hobbiest collected it himself, which takes great skill, patience, and strength to carry it out of the mountain. And then, it takes a lot of quality aftercare to assure the tree survives the collection. And then, there's the matter of regenerating a rootball that can survive in a pot. All these efforts take specialized skills, patience, and time and effort. Let's say, maybe 5 years from mountain to pot. And then you have a 500 year old tree in a pot!

There is no way possible for any living human to grow from scratch something that could compare in a single lifetime!

it seems to me that the trees winning the big awards are the collected trees that have the fabulous trunks. Trunks so spectacular they obscure faults inherent in the trees. Faults that will be corrected over time by the bonsai artists of the future.

 

[Vance Wood]

I agree. But in the beginning us ignorant noobs were left with the impression that these beautiful trees we drooled over in books we the works of many hundreds of man hours over a couple of hundred years. The idea and concept of Yamadori only came to us realiviely recently, and not I don't think this is cheating. It is after all how the first bonsai were created. However doing something with this material is an accomplishment.

 

[MichaelS]

"Adair M,

it seems to me that the trees winning the big awards are the collected trees that have the fabulous trunks. Trunks so spectacular they obscure faults inherent in the trees. Faults that will be corrected over time by the bonsai artists of the future.

Agree with this. Who or what is actually getting the award? The tree or it's owner. If it's the tree, well trees don't really care about awards last time I asked. So that means it's for the owner. Many times, less work (and even skill sometimes) is put into these collected trees than is put into a tree started from scratch and worked on tirelessly for decades (unless the collected tree has been worked on for decades, which in the west is just not so). So back to the awards, if it's not given to the tree to boost it's self esteem, and not really for the work done to it yet - because that is minimal and often has huge and sometimes ugly flaws - then is it simply recognizing a nice trunk? Well if that's the case, big deal! Take a walk in the woods and award those trees awards too.
Don't get me wrong, if I had access to those collected things I would wet myself, but I could not accept an award until I felt I had contributed to at least 50% of the image.

 

[Vance Wood]

"Adair M,



Agree with this. Who or what is actually getting the award? The tree or it's owner. If it's the tree, well trees don't really care about awards last time I asked. So that means it's for the owner. Many times, less work (and even skill sometimes) is put into these collected trees than is put into a tree started from scratch and worked on tirelessly for decades (unless the collected tree has been worked on for decades, which in the west is just not so). So back to the awards, if it's not given to the tree to boost it's self esteem, and not really for the work done to it yet - because that is minimal and often has huge and sometimes ugly flaws - then is it simply recognizing a nice trunk? Well if that's the case, big deal! Take a walk in the woods and award those trees awards too.
Don't get me wrong, if I had access to those collected things I would wet myself, but I could not accept an award until I felt I had contributed to at least 50% of the image.

I agree that there is a lot that seems futile in the awards system of course using your argument why have shows at all? We seem to have this need to excell even if the awards generate the questions you have raised. I could not accept an award until I felt I had contributed to at least 50% of the image. You obviously have not worked a great deal with Yamadori. Just having an old tree with big boobs, I mean trunk, and great bark does not mean it is or will be a great bonsai. Great bonsai do not come out of the ground the way you see them most of the time, and the fact is, most of the time with the exception of the trunk and the bark the image is 99% of the artists work.

 

[MichaelS]

="

Vance Wood,

Great bonsai do not come out of the ground the way you see them most of the time, and the fact is, most of the time with the exception of the trunk and the bark the image is 99% of the artists work

.

If you have a look a t some of the original shimapku soon after collection (from the 1950's although photos are rare) you will see that the original image - that is the trunk and main and even many secondary branches - has changed very little in 60 years.
If you exclude the trunk and primary branches of these trees, you are basing your 99% on 30% of the whole tree. Probably less.
As for European Yamadori all the ones I've seen (and that may not be many but I have seen pictures of many olives, scots pine etc.) have not been worked for more than maybe 10 or at the most 20 years (at a guess) if that. The century of nature's work count for a huge percentage.

Below are some examples of the kind of trees I'm talking about.









The trunks can be magnificent. To be truthful, the actual human work is pretty standard. Yes, let's enjoy the image for what it is but let's not kid ourselves by giving awards to nature.

 

[MichaelS]

The collected trees below are examples of what I would consider to have at least half the image created by human hands. (that means added to the original)





Oh no! what happened to award wining tree? This is nothing special at all!



Oh there it is!

 

[aml1014]

The collected trees below are examples of what I would consider to have at least half the image created by human hands. (that means added to the original)

View attachment 119986

View attachment 119987

Oh no! what happened to award wining tree? This is nothing special at all!

View attachment 119988

Oh there it is!

View attachment 119989

The canopies have been changed completely, also changing the overall image. I'd say that the the artists did a solid styling, even if those branches were there when collected, doesn't mean they didnt look completely different. Let's see a progression of a yamodori tree and say that the artist hasnt done much, otherwise yamadori could be collected and tossed straight into a show if it's just for the trunk, which it isnt!

Aaron

 

[MichaelS]

actual"

aml1014

,

The canopies have been changed completely, also changing the overall image. I'd say that the the artists did a solid styling, even if those branches were there when collected, doesn't mean they didnt look completely different. Let's see a progression of a yamodori tree and say that the artist hasnt done much, otherwise yamadori could be collected and tossed straight into a show if it's just for the trunk, which it isnt!

You are missing my point. (and I'm not sure how because the last 2 pictures illustrate it pretty well) The work done to the tops is just the same kind of work done to most other bonsai that are started from the beginning. It is a very simple matter to follow some pre-determined formula by selecting the best branches, wiring them down and removing the rest. Whether you start from scratch and grow up or start from wild and cut down, the result is the same. What makes the tree special or different, or outstanding is the trunk. In the case of Yamadori, the trunk is not shaped by a human.
Taking the last 2 pics of my previous post, How many trees have you seen like the first one. Answer, thousands. The only difference with the next pic is the trunk. If you award the tree you are awarding the work of nature. It is a magnificent tree but for someone to take credit is just plain pretentious. Like I said, enjoy the image but please spare the bullshit. Let me look at the tree in 30 years and if the branch structure is truly developed, inspired and unique, then award the tree's maker. If it is just more of the same old clipped and wired into horizontal planes, it is just more craftwork and without art and IMO should not be awarded. It is as much art as is building a house. Most of the awarded trees in Europe, and these days even in Japan for that matter, are just that - Crafted trees. All the same on top. So what exactly are we awarding? Copies? Take away the trunk and they fall into the realm of mediocrity. Why can't you see that simple fact? Let's stop beating around the bush and call a spade a spade. It's OK.

Last week we had our annual show. Which tree ''won''? A collected tree of course. Why? because it had a great trunk. The rest - the actual work done on the tree- average. We are awarding the work of nature not art!