Best time of year to cut back Maple branches hard?

Eric Group

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I have been trying to time my work a lot better to get the desired results. There seems to be a bunch of varying opinions on when is the best time to prune back hard on Maples.

It seems that the common answer when asking about timing for most any major work is usually "early Spring right before bud break" whether you are talking a repot or a trunk chop or just hard pruning some decent sized branches. Ok, problem solved right....? Well maybe not... I guess it depends on what your goal is. It seems, according to what I have read that if you leave long branches all winter long, the Maples set the next Spring's buds in the Fall and in Spring start funneling the energy collected in the roots tot he branch tips which- with their Apical dominance- is where the dominant buds are set normally... So, if you come in once the buds have started to swell and lop off the ends of the branches, aren't you kind of weakening the tree? Aren't you also basically waisting a bunch of the previous year's stored energy? Aren't you also creating pretty major wounds at a time when there is some pretty heavy sap flow, thus further sapping the tree's strength? Perhaps pruning in early Spring right before/ right after bud break is a great time to do it if your desired result it to sustain the shape of an established tree, but in TRAINING an incomplete tree with the idea to direct growth and increase ramification, is that a good time to prune one? Wouldn't it make more sense to do major pruning in the Fall for trees still in development- after the tree has grown for a year to remove the unchecked growth and encourage buds to set lower down the branch closer to the trunk?

I have a Red Maple I am thinking of buying- nice thick base with some low branches but has long spindly branches shooting out the top I need to remove to start developing a shape... I would probably prefer to do it in the Spring when I could get some cuttings from the pruning (saying I am hooked on propagation is an understatement).. But I just worry it might weaken the tree or set my development back almost a whole season if I wait that long... Any thoughts? Am I over thinking it?
 

Eric Group

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Sorry- to clarify this is a Red Maple- Acer Rubrum. Not a Red Jap Maple... I have plenty Japanese Maples and yes, I know some people say the Rubrum can be difficult because they tend to throw out coarse growth with long internodes, grow really fast... But I have seen some examples where people were able to control them pretty well and I think a pretty big, thick trucked tree like I plan to make from this one could be alright even if I cannot get the tiny, fine branches more easily developed with like a Trident or something.. It is a tree I have wanted to take a shot at for some time so I think I am just going to go for it!
 

Jason

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I have been trying to time my work a lot better to get the desired results. There seems to be a bunch of varying opinions on when is the best time to prune back hard on Maples.

It seems that the common answer when asking about timing for most any major work is usually "early Spring right before bud break" whether you are talking a repot or a trunk chop or just hard pruning some decent sized branches. Ok, problem solved right....? Well maybe not... I guess it depends on what your goal is. It seems, according to what I have read that if you leave long branches all winter long, the Maples set the next Spring's buds in the Fall and in Spring start funneling the energy collected in the roots tot he branch tips which- with their Apical dominance- is where the dominant buds are set normally... So, if you come in once the buds have started to swell and lop off the ends of the branches, aren't you kind of weakening the tree? Aren't you also basically waisting a bunch of the previous year's stored energy? Aren't you also creating pretty major wounds at a time when there is some pretty heavy sap flow, thus further sapping the tree's strength? Perhaps pruning in early Spring right before/ right after bud break is a great time to do it if your desired result it to sustain the shape of an established tree, but in TRAINING an incomplete tree with the idea to direct growth and increase ramification, is that a good time to prune one? Wouldn't it make more sense to do major pruning in the Fall for trees still in development- after the tree has grown for a year to remove the unchecked growth and encourage buds to set lower down the branch closer to the trunk?

I have a Red Maple I am thinking of buying- nice thick base with some low branches but has long spindly branches shooting out the top I need to remove to start developing a shape... I would probably prefer to do it in the Spring when I could get some cuttings from the pruning (saying I am hooked on propagation is an understatement).. But I just worry it might weaken the tree or set my development back almost a whole season if I wait that long... Any thoughts? Am I over thinking it?


Hi Eric,

I understand your frustration with trying to make decisions on when to prune Maples. I've gotten a little bent out of shape trying to answer this myself (a few other members can maybe attest to that). First, I'll tell you what you probably already know. A lot of this is really climate dependent. What works in Fresno, CA might not work in Green Bay, WI. Secondly, some of it depends on the species of maple your dealing with. Thirdly, (and I think you've already stated this) it depends on the type of pruning your doing and what your goals are. Besides all this, there is a ton of conflicting information and some of the answers seem to depend on who you ask.

That said, this is what I've been doing lately: If I have small refinement pruning to do a Acer Palmatum I generally do it in the fall. If I do it in the early spring I get tons of sap running out of the tree. While some don't think this is a big deal I find it cosmetically unappealing if nothing else. If I have small refinement type of pruning to do on a Trident I will sometimes do it in the fall, but more often do it in the spring because I'm worried about dieback and they don't seem to "bleed" as much. If I have major trunk pruning to do on a Trident I'd do it in the late spring/summer during active growth to harness some of the active growth (begin healing the wounds). I've also lost a Trident doing a chop in the fall. I thought my chop was above a few active buds but in the spring the active buds died off and the tree never recovered. Also remember that sometimes you are trying to weaken a trees response in order to get smaller internodes (later in development). Smaller internodes usually result in better ramification. Exuberant growth can result in longer internodes and in the long run this is a problem (you might end up having to cut way back and start over. Once you have a decent framework it's all about small internodes.

I'm not sure that clarifies anything or helps at all. I really haven't worked with many Red Maples (unless your talking about red colored acer palmatums). It seems like I remember them having longer internodes and if so, doing a chop during active growth would probably be best. Other people on these forums may be able to explain things better….and like I said some of it depends on who you ask.
 

drew33998

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I don't think it weakens the tree as much as you might think by taking it back hard. Essentially you are reducing the amount of buds that the tree is trying to feed in early spring. For example if there are 10 leafs with latent buds and they gather energy all year and send it to the roots. You take it down to 5 buds. The roots now have the ability to feed 10 buds/future leafs with only 5 to feed. There is a misbalance of energy which will result in strong growth in the 5 buds that are left, not to mention any latent buds on the tree. Yes a lot of maples are apically dominant so you will always have to check the growth in that area to make sure it doesn't try to abandon the lower branches. Just my personal theory whether wrong or right.
 

cmeg1

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I always thought maples were to be hard pruned in almost late summer so they heal better and less sap.You could still do cuttings in early season.
 

Dav4

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I've trunk chopped palmatums and done significant root work before bud break with minimal bleeding. I've also done fairly major branch reduction in mid to late summer with no issues.
 

Eric Group

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Thanks for the responses everyone!

So, when cutting back hard in early Spring, did the tree produce a bunch of new buds? I guess that is kind of my goal here- I want to get a lot of new shoots to work with in the Spring because the tree has a nice shape, has some big branches low on the trunk...I want to be able to whack those back and get the best production of new buds to work with.

For increasing ramification I feel like the best thing to do with them is let the new shoots extend for a couple months int he Spring, harden off, then prune them in the early-mid summer so that the new shoots produced have plenty of time to harden off before any cold weather rolls in. Then, you can decide what does and what does not need to be pruned again before Winter sets in... That is a much short synopsis of an articles read about this recently...
 

drew33998

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Thanks for the responses everyone!

So, when cutting back hard in early Spring, did the tree produce a bunch of new buds? I guess that is kind of my goal here- I want to get a lot of new shoots to work with in the Spring because the tree has a nice shape, has some big branches low on the trunk...I want to be able to whack those back and get the best production of new buds to work with.

For increasing ramification I feel like the best thing to do with them is let the new shoots extend for a couple months int he Spring, harden off, then prune them in the early-mid summer so that the new shoots produced have plenty of time to harden off before any cold weather rolls in. Then, you can decide what does and what does not need to be pruned again before Winter sets in... That is a much short synopsis of an articles read about this recently...

You could always try the hedge method by Walter Pall. I think Smoke has done this with some success. If you are concerned about heavy bleeding then use a cut paste of some sort. If you cut a branch back too hard, the worst that could happen would be that there isn't any latent buds on the branch which will result in multiple shoot coming from the point of origin of said branch. At least that is how the rubrums that I have react. When I cut them back hard I get 4-5 shoots coming from the base of the branch. Have to keep those in check. Cut back to what you think is safe to have buds break on the branch. Chances are you will still get multiple shoots coming from the base of the branch if you cut it hard. Good luck
 

Poink88

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You could always try the hedge method by Walter Pall. I think Smoke has done this with some success.

If I am not mistaken, Walter use this method for speed and convenience (I know I've read/hear him admit to that as well)...because he have so many to maintain & have very little free time. Use it if you have to (like if you have same time constraint as Walter) but IMHO, it is no substitute to a careful, well thought of, pruning.
 

drew33998

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If I am not mistaken, Walter use this method for speed and convenience (I know I've read/hear him admit to that as well)...because he have so many to maintain & have very little free time. Use it if you have to (like if you have same time constraint as Walter) but IMHO, it is no substitute to a careful, well thought of, pruning.

No you are probably correct. I think he does it for speed and convenience too. It seems he does this to select his primary and secondary branches out of the many that the tree produces during this process. After that I still think he has to follow the general guidelines of trimming a maple for ramification. After I have thought about it. This process may not be the best for the OP in this situation. Keep me straight Dario! Haha
 

Walter Pall

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I don't do it only for speed and convenience. I do it on trees which cost more than ten grand. Do you think I am crazy and lazy? I do it because it is the best method to develop even 'finished' trees a lot further.

I cut maples by the end of October to end of December. Again, I cut trees worth more than ten grand (each). This is the time for fine tuning and careful choosing what and where to cut.

There is much discussion about methods and one shouts louder that the other one. In the end words mean nothing and only one thing counts: who has the better and healthier trees in the long run, who has improved 'very good' trees to 'most outstanding' trees?
 

Poink88

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I don't do it only for speed and convenience. I do it on trees which cost more than ten grand. Do you think I am crazy and lazy? I do it because it is the best method to develop even 'finished' trees a lot further.

I cut maples by the end of October to end of December. Again, I cut trees worth more than ten grand (each). This is the time for fine tuning and careful choosing what and where to cut.

There is much discussion about methods and one shouts louder that the other one. In the end words mean nothing and only one thing counts: who has the better and healthier trees in the long run, who has improved 'very good' trees to 'most outstanding' trees?

I apologize Walter. I read it it somewhere and really thought it came from you. Your trees (and your students) sure looks great...and among the best in my eye (and surely others).
 

drew33998

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I don't do it only for speed and convenience. I do it on trees which cost more than ten grand. Do you think I am crazy and lazy? I do it because it is the best method to develop even 'finished' trees a lot further.

I cut maples by the end of October to end of December. Again, I cut trees worth more than ten grand (each). This is the time for fine tuning and careful choosing what and where to cut.

There is much discussion about methods and one shouts louder that the other one. In the end words mean nothing and only one thing counts: who has the better and healthier trees in the long run, who has improved 'very good' trees to 'most outstanding' trees?

No I like your method. I can't say from personal experience that it has worked for me as I have never done it. But if you apply it to such costly trees, and judging from your trees it has worked for you greatly. You do have one on the best maples I have ever seen. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, and I love the youtube videos.(especially Plato's cave theory) Cheers.
 

Eric Group

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I don't do it only for speed and convenience. I do it on trees which cost more than ten grand. Do you think I am crazy and lazy? I do it because it is the best method to develop even 'finished' trees a lot further.

I cut maples by the end of October to end of December. Again, I cut trees worth more than ten grand (each). This is the time for fine tuning and careful choosing what and where to cut.

There is much discussion about methods and one shouts louder that the other one. In the end words mean nothing and only one thing counts: who has the better and healthier trees in the long run, who has improved 'very good' trees to 'most outstanding' trees?

I dont think there is any way to argue with the results you produce Walter. I have seen a lot of trees in the years I have been doing bonsai and your Maples are some of the best in the world IMO.
 

Eric Group

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Unfortunately I went to buy the tree today and it was already gone! Oh well... It wasn't something i really needed anyway and I wound up finding a nice little juniper at a different nursery today so I can't be too upset!
 

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I've read Walter's article at least a dozen times:

http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/refurbishing-japanese-maple-hedge.html

The method gives VITALITY (the plant grows quickly and healthily).

The method gives OPTIONS (many shoots including a lot of back budding).

The method gives SELECTED THICKENING (branch taper can be developed faster, giving the tree a more mature look faster).

In Winter the tree is then selectively pruned once you can see it's true structure. I would imagine this would take a considerable amount of time given the excess shoots and isn't a matter of convenience or speed.
 

Lars Grimm

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@Eric Group Have you had any experience (positive or negative) based on your experience? I live in a similar climate and have also read about doing large cuts in mid-Summer during relative dormancy so you still get time for healing in the later stages of Summer and Fall.
 

Eric Group

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@Eric Group Have you had any experience (positive or negative) based on your experience? I live in a similar climate and have also read about doing large cuts in mid-Summer during relative dormancy so you still get time for healing in the later stages of Summer and Fall.
Well this is a multiple question... results regarding....

Red Maples (the original intended subject of this thread Fromm FOUR YEARS AGO!)- my experience they are a frustrating subject for the most part, drop small branches commonly, throw long internodes with large leaves and thick twigs generally which leads to inconsistent results with Bonsai... doesn't seem to matter too terribly much when you prune or how you prune- cut back hard? My bud back or my just drop the branch. Remove the center bud as new Spring growth develops- new leaves are probably still going to be too big. Only confinement to really small pots seems to consistently produce smaller leaves and twigs and then You get really slow growth and slow development. So red Maples. Though not impossible subjects are not as easy to develop as JM and Trident...

Now, hard cut backs on Maples in general? Depends on what your goal is. Growth? Thickening trunk? DONT CUT THEM BACK HARD. For YEARS at least... every 3-5 years you might consider a chop (depending on growth rates and your environment and movement/ taper goals this can vary, for us every couple years if going for a larger tree..).
Trying to start working down an already grown out tree? I feel like late Spring is a good time for hard cut backs. Let it throw the Spring growth- ensure it is really healthy before work. It spends the stored energy (maybe you did an air layer of the branch you were going to chop if you were forward thinking and like free stuff, like I DO), by late Spring, early summer you can cut back pretty hard... this lets it grow out and start healing while also allowing you to start working in the branches below the ones you are leaving as sacrifices to heal the wounds you just made... does that make sense? Help you out a bit maybe?

Now, if you are close by to me... this may be a rob Spring for you as I just took that late freeze in the FACE! Moved some stuff in, but got a lot of crispy leave son the stuff I did not have room for in the garage! If the tree was recently stressed like that, might not want to work it hard this year or at least make sure it is happy again before you jump in.
 

Adair M

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My thoughts:

This thread began with discussion about Red Maples. Acer Rubrum. I don't like them as bonsai for all the same reasons as Eric stated. I have 6 of them in my landscape. And every winter they drop branches. I'm constantly picking up fallen branches. I'd hate to have the tree just drop one I've been working for years.

As a general comment about preventing winter die off on deciduous trees, believe it or not, it all begins with strong roots in good soil. The next thing is to protect the trees from wind. Winter winds can dessicate fine twigs very easily. It's not so much cold that does the damage, it's wind.

About when to cut:

Fall, right as the leaves are turning, is the best time. The sap isn't rising, it's falling. But, the tree is preparing for winter, and it's readying buds for the following spring. Use a soft cut paste. The Japanese apprentices I've spoken with believe that cuts made in fall callous over with a thinner callous. Whereas a cut made in spring or summer will callous over with a thick callous that's likely to create a bulge. Because it grows so quickly. The Japanese would rather it heal slower but be less unsightly when it's done than have a fast growing callous that creates a bulging scar.

On a large cut where they take a heavy branch off the trunk, for example, after applying the cut paste, they'll wrap it with grafting tape or something. The idea is the callous will spread across the wound under the tape, rather than bulge up and make a protruding bump. Now, when it comes time to remove the tape, you have to be extremely careful not to accidentally pull the callous off!
 
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