Beginner with Japanese White Pine

[Fridge]

Hi all you bonsai experts

I bought this Japanese white pine a couple of years ago and have been letting it grow freely except a bit of pinching on the candles. It is my first bonsai and I did not pay a huge amount of money for it. I know it has pretty bad bite marks in the trunk and I'm sure there are a lot of other flaws which could be pointed out, but I have get a lot of enjoyment from it and am excited to see how it develops

The tree is around 15 years old and my aim with the tree is to grow it larger over many years. I like the look of the slightly larger trees and have attached an image of what I want to go towards in the next stages (years) of its growth. I do like the look of the large canopy on the first branch and (as everyone) would love a thicker trunk

As a beginner my main priority is that the tree grows healthily and fills out with age. I have not done any kind of wiring or pruning of branches yet on the tree but I think I need to do so later this year

I was hoping to get your feedback on the following
* If my main priority is simply to grow the tree healthily and bigger should I simply leave it to grow?
* Should I flatten out the lowest canopy with some wiring and start to flatten out a canopy on the opposite side to this but slightly higher up the tree?
* The tree was last re-potted around 2-3 years ago - should I put this in a larger pot if I want to grow it larger?

Please let me know if the pictures I attached are no good!

Apologies for all the newbie questions but I'm excited to start taking a more active part in shaping the tree, and would appreciate any feedback!

Thanks
Fred

 

[sorce]

Welcome to Crazy!

I reckon this tree can use a larger pot to remain alive, let alone healthy enough to get styling.
Plus...between me and you...
That tree hates that blue glaze!

This is a great little tree.

What's with the first one?

Sorce

 

[penumbra]

That tree hates that blue glaze!

This is based upon a tradition of using unglazed pots for evergreens and glazed pots for deciduous trees. I have never agreed with this preposition. Although I do not like that pot for that tree, it has nothing to do with the blue glaze.

 

[Fridge]

Welcome to Crazy!

I reckon this tree can use a larger pot to remain alive, let alone healthy enough to get styling.
Plus...between me and you...
That tree hates that blue glaze!

This is a great little tree.

What's with the first one?

Sorce

Thanks for the welcome and reply! I also dislike the pot (although purely from an aesthetics perspective...)

I live in the UK and from what I have read the best time to wire JWPs is autumn to winter, and for re-potting is Spring or early Autumn. I haven't actually got a pot yet so I was thinking to:
* leave the tree alone for spring/ summer except feeding and watering
* re-pot in a larger pot around mid-September (will the tree be ok until then?)
* wire to flatten the canopies around December

 

[Fridge]

I live in the UK and from what I have read the best time to wire JWPs is autumn to winter, and for re-potting is Spring or early Autumn. I haven't actually got a pot yet so I was thinking to:
* leave the tree alone for spring/ summer except feeding and watering
* re-pot in a larger pot around mid-September (will the tree be ok until then?)
* wire to flatten the canopies around December

Realised I didn't ask a question here. Does the plan above sound good? Any issues with it or recommendations to do something different are welcomed warmly

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Welcome to BNut Fred.

Basically your plan sounds good. Acquire your potting materials over the summer. The tree should be fine until autumn. There are a number of bonsai clubs in the UK, you should join one, if for no other reason other than to help you determine the best timing for different activities. Others who know your immediate climate are helpful. Myself, due to my local climate, I can repot in August. I do not know if that is advisable in your neighborhood. I am a fan of late summer - early autumn repotting of pines. I know some very strongly advocate for only repotting in spring. Local conditions are critical in terms of what is the best plan. Find local bonsai growers to help you with timing for techniques.

Wiring the branches and their foliage to a more horizontal shape is good, best done anytime except spring. You can wire from summer through the winter. If you are going to repot, wire before you repot, and then do not wire for 6 months after you repot. Wiring you will jostle the trunk, and this may break new tender roots. So leave the tree be immediately after repotting.

When you repot, if the tree were mine, I would change the angle the trunk leaves the soil. Right now your trunk line turns horizontal, and runs parallel to the ground for a bit before resuming an upward movement. This is very awkward. I would angle the trunk relative to the ground, to the right so that there is no segment of the main trunk that is parallel to the ground. After doing this, and allowing the tree to settle after repotting, you can re-arrange the branches, to bring them back to horizontal, or slightly descending.

 

[Gsquared]

Looks like you got a great start. That JWP is waaaay nicer than my first tree. Sounds like you are getting some good advice. I’m not very experienced w JWP since I’ve lived, until recently, in climates where they don’t do well. I’m dipping my toes in to white pines now that I live in a friendlier clime.

You mentioned the wire scars on the trunk, but I think those might have been intentional. Commercial growers would wrap a thin trunk w wire and allow the tree to grow so that the scarring occurred to induce the trunk to thicken more rapidly. Usually they were white pine grafted onto black pine stock. I’ve seen trees that are a little older than yours on which this technique was used and the scarring was greatly reduced when the bark started to age. It may not be the “best” way to thicken a trunk, but I would bet in 5-10 years it won’t nearly be as noticeable.

 

[sorce]

Since your Repot won't be too invasive, seeing as how you'll go up a bit....

I'd wire it first, correctly, and if it seems you didn't damage much, Repot it right after.

Fall thickening is the time in which to have wire on, so wiring in winter means 6 months of it doing little but getting in the way, possibly damaging spring buds, for not enough pay off.

Wiring before fall, so long as there is health, ensures a tight fit for the next spring thru fall, which is much safer.

Sorce

 

[Adair M]

The time to wire JWP is late summer, early fall. After the needles have hardened off.

They can be wired later in fall, but the tradition is earlier. They “harden off” before the JBP, so in Japan, JWP get wired first, then work moves to thE JBP.

 

[0soyoung]

The time to wire JWP is late summer, early fall. After the needles have hardened off.

They can be wired later in fall, but the tradition is earlier. They “harden off” before the JBP, so in Japan, JWP get wired first, then work moves to thE JBP.

In other words, after the leaf sheaths drop?

 

[Adair M]

In other words, after the leaf sheaths drop?

Yes, maybe a week or two after. That’s when the needles gave fully developed. That’s also when to begin fertilizing, if you have been withholding fertilizer to avoid long needles and long internodes.

 

[Fridge]

Welcome to BNut Fred.

Basically your plan sounds good. Acquire your potting materials over the summer. The tree should be fine until autumn. There are a number of bonsai clubs in the UK, you should join one, if for no other reason other than to help you determine the best timing for different activities...Wiring the branches and their foliage to a more horizontal shape is good, best done anytime except spring. You can wire from summer through the winter. If you are going to repot, wire before you repot, and then do not wire for 6 months after you repot. Wiring you will jostle the trunk, and this may break new tender roots. So leave the tree be immediately after repotting...When you repot, if the tree were mine, I would change the angle the trunk leaves the soil. Right now your trunk line turns horizontal, and runs parallel to the ground for a bit before resuming an upward movement. This is very awkward. I would angle the trunk relative to the ground, to the right so that there is no segment of the main trunk that is parallel to the ground. After doing this, and allowing the tree to settle after repotting, you can re-arrange the branches, to bring them back to horizontal, or slightly descending.

Thanks so much for the feedback, I will have a look at joining a club as it sounds like a great source of local info. Also like your idea on changing the angle of the tree when re-potting, will definitely have a look in to that. Thanks again!

Taking your advice and that of others above, I will plan to...
* Spring let it grow
* mid-Summer - wire it
* Autumn - re-pot

 

[Fridge]

Looks like you got a great start. That JWP is waaaay nicer than my first tree. Sounds like you are getting some good advice. I’m not very experienced w JWP since I’ve lived, until recently, in climates where they don’t do well. I’m dipping my toes in to white pines now that I live in a friendlier clime.

You mentioned the wire scars on the trunk, but I think those might have been intentional. Commercial growers would wrap a thin trunk w wire and allow the tree to grow so that the scarring occurred to induce the trunk to thicken more rapidly. Usually they were white pine grafted onto black pine stock. I’ve seen trees that are a little older than yours on which this technique was used and the scarring was greatly reduced when the bark started to age. It may not be the “best” way to thicken a trunk, but I would bet in 5-10 years it won’t nearly be as noticeable.

Thanks for the reply, I'm hoping the scarring will go down a little as you say, but I'm not too fussed by it. Hope your ventures in to JWPs go well!

 

[Fridge]

I have been doing quite a bit of reading on the forum and elsewhere and am slightly confused on candle pinching. At the end of the lower branch of my tree there is quite a lot of growth (and new growth is mainly in this area). I am not too concerned with this branch extending as I do want this branch to grow longer, however I want to get good density of the needles and also to encourage growth in the higher canopy and further back on the lower branch

I have tried (probably not very well!) to show what my short-ish term goal is in the 1st photograph where I want to wire the canopies down in late summer and encourage growth in the direction shown by the arrows. Also don't worry, I only brought the tree inside to take the photo!

Would you recommend I pinch the two larger candles shown in the 2nd photo in half to achieve my aims or just leave it?

Thanks

Fred

 

[Adair M]

Where the two linger candles are, are there any additional, smaller candles? Often JWP will have three candles at strong terminals. One really strong, and two smaller ones. The typical approach is to remove the strongest one in it’s entirety, keeping to two weaker ones.

please see my thread “Bjorn’s single flush pine technique explained”, and watch Bjorn’s video.

Bjorn demonstrates the technique far better than I can describe it here.

By the way, at the base of those strong candles, there are pollen cones forming. I suggest that you don’t remove those strong candles tight now, but do observe how the candles grow, how the pollen cones develop, what they look like, etc so you will be able to tell the difference between them and needle clusters in the future.

Observation is a great way to learn!

 

[Fridge]

Where the two linger candles are, are there any additional, smaller candles? Often JWP will have three candles at strong terminals. One really strong, and two smaller ones. The typical approach is to remove the strongest one in it’s entirety, keeping to two weaker ones.

please see my thread “Bjorn’s single flush pine technique explained”, and watch Bjorn’s video.

Bjorn demonstrates the technique far better than I can describe it here.

By the way, at the base of those strong candles, there are pollen cones forming. I suggest that you don’t remove those strong candles tight now, but do observe how the candles grow, how the pollen cones develop, what they look like, etc so you will be able to tell the difference between them and needle clusters in the future.

Observation is a great way to learn!

Thanks Adair, I watched the video and it was incredibly helpful - very useful how he went through on such a clear example so this cleared up a lot of my questions so thanks very much for posting this. It was particularly useful to see how the needles start to appear and when to trim

I am certainly paying close attention to it, as it is my only tree it gets a lot of observation in these times of lock down!

 

[Adair M]

Thanks Adair, I watched the video and it was incredibly helpful - very useful how he went through on such a clear example so this cleared up a lot of my questions so thanks very much for posting this. It was particularly useful to see how the needles start to appear and when to trim

I am certainly paying close attention to it, as it is my only tree it gets a lot of observation in these times of lock down!

The only thing he missed was the pollen cones. And to be careful not to cut off all the needles accidentally thinking the buds for the pollen cones are needles.

 

[Fridge]

Well it's been around a month and the pollen cones have now just about all fallen off. I had a couple of questions if I could pick your bonsai brains please

1) Some of the more vigorous shoots had many pollen cones and have left quite large bare parts on the new extension. I don't really mind this as my goal for the tree is to grow it slightly larger anyway (and there are not many of these larger bare parts on the new growth). On the video by Bjorn I understood he recommends only cutting candles down to where some new needles remain otherwise a new bud would not form there next year
So as an example, am I right in thinking that if I want to continue the new growth at some point on the longer candle below I could not cut this candle back as the only new needles are right at the end of this new growth?



2) I want to repot my tree but I know it is the wrong time to do so. As the soil seems too retentive I was poking drainage holes through the soil and the whole tree and soil came out of the pot! So thought this was a good time to inspect it. Is the white stuff on the below anything to worry about and how does the root and soil look generally?Apologies but I am not sure what to look for so not sure if alarm bells should be ringing and I should be repotting as soon as I can!

 

[Adair M]

Well it's been around a month and the pollen cones have now just about all fallen off. I had a couple of questions if I could pick your bonsai brains please

1) Some of the more vigorous shoots had many pollen cones and have left quite large bare parts on the new extension. I don't really mind this as my goal for the tree is to grow it slightly larger anyway (and there are not many of these larger bare parts on the new growth). On the video by Bjorn I understood he recommends only cutting candles down to where some new needles remain otherwise a new bud would not form there next year
So as an example, am I right in thinking that if I want to continue the new growth at some point on the longer candle below I could not cut this candle back as the only new needles are right at the end of this new growth?

View attachment 306634

2) I want to repot my tree but I know it is the wrong time to do so. As the soil seems too retentive I was poking drainage holes through the soil and the whole tree and soil came out of the pot! So thought this was a good time to inspect it. Is the white stuff on the below anything to worry about and how does the root and soil look generally?Apologies but I am not sure what to look for so not sure if alarm bells should be ringing and I should be repotting as soon as I can!

View attachment 306635

1) You have a choice: a) keep the long candle; b) cut it off. There’s really no way to shorten it. If you think it’s too long, just cut it off, you have another shorter candle there.

2). The white stuff is mychorrazzae. A beneficial soil fungus that keeps the tree absorb nutrients. Don’t even THINK about repotting this tree now. Wait until next early spring.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I think the white webbing is mycorrhiza. That is normally a healthy sign.