Beginner question - Is this Pine hopeless?

Thanks for all the advice. I eventually went down the literati path and ended up with this for now.

View attachment 580180

I know the wiring is ugly, but I wanted to re-use the seller's old wire at the bottom of the trunk. I will be careful to not cause any more wire scars at the top, and probably let the wires dig in a little at the bottom to gnarl it up a bit. The existing wire scars will probably be turned into shari.

I did not remove the lower branches, as they will probably be turned into jin later. As for the three primary branches on top, I did not remove any needles for now as all three have roughly the same number of needles.

During the report, I barely opened up the bottom fifth of the roots, without touching the main root-ball for now. I used vermicompost to add some organic nutrition along with akadama and pumice. I have read that vermicompost can reduce soil acidity, and so I plan on adding coffee/tea grounds along with fertilizer regularly.

Now I will only hope it survives, and back-buds. I am getting mixed information about back-budding. In Ryan Neil's lecture, he said that decandling is only for reducing needle size and not for back budding. While I have seen a lot of information that decandling causes back-budding. Any clarification would really help.

Indeed demanding may have any one of the 2 outcomes:
Shorter new needles
Back budding + shorter needles

But since your tree has its apex region way up, you will have to wire you apex below one of the lower branches so that it takes over as the next leader. Once you get good growth you could consider cutting one major branch in one growing season(again this depends on vigor) and eventually the height of the tree will be reduced...
 
Yeah they don't do really well in the tropics... but on Ausbonsai I saw people growing japanese black pine up in Townsville, which is also a tropical savannah just like bangalore is... our Lowest goes to around 60°F which even I don't think is enough but apparently they do grow in a very similar climate. I suppose we could use alternatives to japanese black pines like casuarina...

Also, I've got an idea to reduce the daylength and sunlight by putting trees in a dark place 1 hour earlier to sunset, to replicate reduction in daylight. So far, it has worked and my japanese maple was starting to lose leaves in India... I don't think daylength alone is enough... maybe we could put it in the fridge only in the night for the winters to provide sufficient chill while bringing them out in the day for sunlight? Just curious if it might work although time consuming and risky

What are the problems one might face with trees in the fridge?
For sunlight we can bring them out only in the day while in the night in the fridge.
Temperature is maintained at about 4°C
Humidity is the main concern, but from my observation the conifers like pines and junipers are adapted to very low humidity conditions, upto 20% relative humidity, so I don't think it would be a problem right? I'm just curious and want to know your opinions on this...

Btw sorry souvik to take your post off-topic
I guess you could wrap up the rootball in plastic before you refrigerate it, to conserve humidity. It sounds drastic to keep it in the fridge, but I totally get the urge of keeping temperate species in our climate. Guilty pleasures!! Sadly, you get used to all the ficuses after a point. I'm considering covering my pots in ice cubes every night starting next winter. :(
 
I guess you could wrap up the rootball in plastic before you refrigerate it, to conserve humidity. It sounds drastic to keep it in the fridge, but I totally get the urge of keeping temperate species in our climate. Guilty pleasures!! Sadly, you get used to all the ficuses after a point. I'm considering covering my pots in ice cubes every night starting next winter. :(

I think ice won't really help, as it would cause root shock and kill the roots... in winter even in very cold climates the soil remains at higher temps...
 
Indeed demanding may have any one of the 2 outcomes:
Shorter new needles
Back budding + shorter needles

But since your tree has its apex region way up, you will have to wire you apex below one of the lower branches so that it takes over as the next leader. Once you get good growth you could consider cutting one major branch in one growing season(again this depends on vigor) and eventually the height of the tree will be reduced...
I guess the point of going down the literati route was to accommodate the branchless first two-thirds of the trunk. I now want back budding only on the three primary branches on the top, but I don't expect any major trunk chop hereafter.
 
Hello again Gurus,

Followup Decandling question please:

We usually have early springs, and evidently, the candles have already started to open up, as you can see in the attached pictures.
- The strongest branch seems to have the central longest candle and the needles are just about to open up. This branch has some side candles also, but they are tiny.
20250223_084427.jpg
- The second-strongest branch seems to have one central and other shorter-but-significant candles, but none have started to open up yet.
20250223_084435.jpg
- The weaker side branches have already opened up and you can see needles already.
20250223_084444.jpg

My questions are:
1. Is it already a good time to start decandling?
2. Where exactly should you cut, and how much do you leave? I have seen a lot of youtube videos on the theory of decandling, but I am yet to find a close up of actually removing the candles of a tree in this stage.
3. Should I cut only the central candle and leave the smaller candles on the side? Are these existing side candles the ones that cause the second flush? Or should we chop off all of these and then wait for sompletey new candles for the second flush? The strongest branch has some tiny side candles, and the second-strongest branch has some significant side candles - do they all get the same treatment?
4. The candles on the weaker branches has already opened up. I plan to leave them be - to possibly thicken the lower trunck a bit for a year, and then be Jinned eventually. Would it be OK to not decandle these weaker branches, while I decandle the stronger branches?

Thanks a lot in advance for all your help!!
 
Hello again Gurus,

Followup Decandling question please:

We usually have early springs, and evidently, the candles have already started to open up, as you can see in the attached pictures.
- The strongest branch seems to have the central longest candle and the needles are just about to open up. This branch has some side candles also, but they are tiny.
View attachment 584333
- The second-strongest branch seems to have one central and other shorter-but-significant candles, but none have started to open up yet.
View attachment 584334
- The weaker side branches have already opened up and you can see needles already.
View attachment 584335

My questions are:
1. Is it already a good time to start decandling?
2. Where exactly should you cut, and how much do you leave? I have seen a lot of youtube videos on the theory of decandling, but I am yet to find a close up of actually removing the candles of a tree in this stage.
3. Should I cut only the central candle and leave the smaller candles on the side? Are these existing side candles the ones that cause the second flush? Or should we chop off all of these and then wait for sompletey new candles for the second flush? The strongest branch has some tiny side candles, and the second-strongest branch has some significant side candles - do they all get the same treatment?
4. The candles on the weaker branches has already opened up. I plan to leave them be - to possibly thicken the lower trunck a bit for a year, and then be Jinned eventually. Would it be OK to not decandle these weaker branches, while I decandle the stronger branches?

Thanks a lot in advance for all your help!!


Don't decandle, the tree is still not vigorous enough after the wiring. Decandling is done in refinement not in the development stage. Leave it alone for 1 year and then come back for pruning. See I'm telling you this because pines are very sensitive to pruning and are slow to develop
 
Thanks, but my design might go completely off if the branches extend more without secondary branching :(. If I have longer sections without finer branching, it might have to become a cross between a literati and a cascade - which I think would be weird.
Plus, being a literati, I do not really want the trunk to thicken up a lot more - maybe just a little based on the lower sacrificials and possibly some wire scarring. But for me, this tree is ready to start the ramification process.

In terms of vigor, it looks OK to me :confused:. After the wiring and the repot, it didn't seem to skip a beat so far - green everywhere, no needles dropped, candles getting pushed all over. Fingers crossed. 🤞
 
I think it's way too early in the season to decandle. The term is actually quite misleading. Should be something more like 'remove new spring shoots' but that's obviously not sexy enough. Decandling works best when we cut the candles early summer. If you early in spring the tree just puts heaps of energy into growing new, strong spring candles which defeats the purpose though you may get some extra shoots to develop ramification.

I suspect the branches are still way too long for traditional decandling to be useful. I usually start working JBP with a much harder prune. Those branches may look OK now while they have lots of needles but all those will drop off in a year or 2, leaving long, bare branches similar to the trunk. After decandling, new shoots will emerge from the base of the current spring candles and grow out from there so your ra,mification will begin way out where the base of those candles are. If you're happy with that then decandling in early summer should work.

If you would like some ramification starting back further you should make your first cuts way back near the start of the older needles. Maybe somewhere near my red lines on this virt.
jbp2.png
You can then build the ramification slowly over the next few years.
 
Thanks a lot for the insights - it's really helpful, and it raises more questions for me :).

I entirely agree that the following. That was the reason, I did not want this year's candles to grow into further long branches.
Those branches may look OK now while they have lots of needles but all those will drop off in a year or 2, leaving long, bare branches similar to the trunk. After decandling, new shoots will emerge from the base of the current spring candles and grow out from there so your ra,mification will begin way out where the base of those candles are.

Ideally I would like to have back-budding. But I found a lot of confusing information online. Ryna Neil seemed to suggest in one of his videos that if you want back-budding, you should not candle-prune but let it grow undisturbed - which sounds counter-intuitive. I have read elsewhere that hard pruning can cause needle buds which lack vigor and eventually die out.

However, thanks a lot for the suggestion, I would most likely go down the route you suggested. I think now I would only leave the branch at the back (probably without decandling) as a sacrificial branch to avoid three branches starting from the same spot in the eventual design. So, finally, I am inclining towards hard pruning the two right-most branches in your picture.

My new questions are:
- Is now a good time for hard-pruning? Or should it be in late summer to not interrupt the spring flush?
- I believe I should cut while still keeping some existing needles on the branches - probably equal number of pairs on each branch, right?
- Is it OK to leave one of the three main branches without pruning? Will it weaken the other two which get hard-pruned (which are the ones I eventually intend to keep)?

Thanks again in advance!
 
- Is now a good time for hard-pruning? Or should it be in late summer to not interrupt the spring flush?
I don't think interrupting the Spring flush is an issue. You can hard prune pines any time of year - provided you leave some healthy needles where the new buds will grow - but results will vary depending on timing. Early Spring will usually yield strong growing new shoots. Early Summer will achieve a similar result to decandling - shorter new shoots with smaller needles. Late summer and winter pruning will often yield new buds that wait until the following Spring to grow and open (usually long, strong new shoots)
Long, strong shoots can be either decandled or cut in half to reduce the size and length of those shoots so it is possible to prune almost any time.
I believe I should cut while still keeping some existing needles on the branches - probably equal number of pairs on each branch, right?
I think it's a bit early in the process to be worrying about equality. This comes later when we are trying to equalise strength and vigour of all the branches. There's no harm in trying to end up with equal foliage on all branches but probably not necessary.
Is it OK to leave one of the three main branches without pruning? Will it weaken the other two which get hard-pruned (which are the ones I eventually intend to keep)?
This is usually OK but pines are apical dominant so allowing one upper branch to grow strong can sometimes weaken the others, especially if they are pruned. Keep any growing sacrifice branches away from the 'keepers' so it does not shade them too much. We often strip lower foliage from sacrifice branches to ensure enough sun gets to the ones we want but that's not an issue for this tree now.
If, in future, you notice lack of vigour or poor budding in the branches you are developing I would not hesitate to either chop or bend the sacrifice branch down so it is no longer dominating.
This may also be the reason for:
I have read elsewhere that hard pruning can cause needle buds which lack vigor and eventually die out.
The only times I've experienced this is where lower branches were pruned while stronger upper branches allowed to grow. I hard prune JBP quite regularly and the vast majority of JBP I've chopped bud well and grow strongly.
 
Thank you so much for taking the time out for such detailed answers. I have a pretty clear idea what I want to do now. :)
 
I think it's way too early in the season to decandle. The term is actually quite misleading. Should be something more like 'remove new spring shoots' but that's obviously not sexy enough. Decandling works best when we cut the candles early summer. If you early in spring the tree just puts heaps of energy into growing new, strong spring candles which defeats the purpose though you may get some extra shoots to develop ramification.

I suspect the branches are still way too long for traditional decandling to be useful. I usually start working JBP with a much harder prune. Those branches may look OK now while they have lots of needles but all those will drop off in a year or 2, leaving long, bare branches similar to the trunk. After decandling, new shoots will emerge from the base of the current spring candles and grow out from there so your ra,mification will begin way out where the base of those candles are. If you're happy with that then decandling in early summer should work.

If you would like some ramification starting back further you should make your first cuts way back near the start of the older needles. Maybe somewhere near my red lines on this virt.
View attachment 584346
You can then build the ramification slowly over the next few years.
Hey Shibui, In regards to your red marked line for cut back, you would cut these off there even with no buds showing below hoping that, with the needles being there it will bud back? Pretty cool if that happened. Do you think that will work on Lodge Pole and Ponderosa pines also? If so what time of year would you do that? Thanks
 
@minkesThat is very interesting, thanks also for the recommended video.

As I already went down the literati route, I am considering staying with that design for now. But eventually if it doesnt work out, I'll probably have to do some drastic Bending and compacting.
 
Hey Shibui, In regards to your red marked line for cut back, you would cut these off there even with no buds showing below hoping that, with the needles being there it will bud back? Pretty cool if that happened. Do you think that will work on Lodge Pole and Ponderosa pines also? If so what time of year would you do that? Thanks
This question makes me nervous! Isnt this how everyone does it?
 
This question makes me nervous! Isnt this how everyone does it?
I'd say all experienced pine growers but there's still plenty of people still trying to come to grips with all the conflicting info on pines as bonsai.


Hey Shibui, In regards to your red marked line for cut back, you would cut these off there even with no buds showing below hoping that, with the needles being there it will bud back? Pretty cool if that happened. Do you think that will work on Lodge Pole and Ponderosa pines also? If so what time of year would you do that? Thanks
Cutting back to healthy needles is a standard way to reduce pines. It's usually done in the early stages of development before moving on to decandling to develop and maintain ramification in teh later stages. There's more than 99% chance of new buds from healthy needles. I've never had a failure, though if the branch is particularly weak or something else goes wrong before buds initiate you sometimes only get a couple of shoots. On strong, healthy branches it's more likely to get many new shoots, especially in the upper parts of a tree. I'd say the only caveat is if you leave strong branches unpruned above the pruned ones the tree will sometimes not bother with the low branches and put all its effort into the high branches.

I have very little experience with lodgepole and none with ponderosa but I have chopped JBP, JRP, JWP, Mugho and P. radiata and they all respond well so I assume it will work on most pines.
 
Hello again Gurus,

Followup Decandling question please:

We usually have early springs, and evidently, the candles have already started to open up, as you can see in the attached pictures.
- The strongest branch seems to have the central longest candle and the needles are just about to open up. This branch has some side candles also, but they are tiny.
View attachment 584333
- The second-strongest branch seems to have one central and other shorter-but-significant candles, but none have started to open up yet.
View attachment 584334
- The weaker side branches have already opened up and you can see needles already.
View attachment 584335

My questions are:
1. Is it already a good time to start decandling?
2. Where exactly should you cut, and how much do you leave? I have seen a lot of youtube videos on the theory of decandling, but I am yet to find a close up of actually removing the candles of a tree in this stage.
3. Should I cut only the central candle and leave the smaller candles on the side? Are these existing side candles the ones that cause the second flush? Or should we chop off all of these and then wait for sompletey new candles for the second flush? The strongest branch has some tiny side candles, and the second-strongest branch has some significant side candles - do they all get the same treatment?
4. The candles on the weaker branches has already opened up. I plan to leave them be - to possibly thicken the lower trunck a bit for a year, and then be Jinned eventually. Would it be OK to not decandle these weaker branches, while I decandle the stronger branches?

Thanks a lot in advance for all your help!!
 
If it doesnt get cold enough in your "winter" it wont be able to get the dormancy it needs and will die eventually anyway

I thought JBP don't require a dormancy? So many people here growing them in Australia including a whole nursery in Queensland, @Shibui @Ryceman3 . Can someone confirm?
 
I'd say all experienced pine growers but there's still plenty of people still trying to come to grips with all the conflicting info on pines as bonsai.



Cutting back to healthy needles is a standard way to reduce pines. It's usually done in the early stages of development before moving on to decandling to develop and maintain ramification in teh later stages. There's more than 99% chance of new buds from healthy needles. I've never had a failure, though if the branch is particularly weak or something else goes wrong before buds initiate you sometimes only get a couple of shoots. On strong, healthy branches it's more likely to get many new shoots, especially in the upper parts of a tree. I'd say the only caveat is if you leave strong branches unpruned above the pruned ones the tree will sometimes not bother with the low branches and put all its effort into the high branches.

I have very little experience with lodgepole and none with ponderosa but I have chopped JBP, JRP, JWP, Mugho and P. radiata and they all respond well so I assume it will work on most pines.
"so I assume it will work on most pines." as long as one has needles in the area, right? No needles, not buds? Thanks for the clarification.
 
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