Bare root collected tree?

[travislivid]

I have been collecting some cedar elms. On most of the small ones I have collected i am bare rooting and washing off all the native soil before planting into large pots to recuperate. Most of the research I have done suggests that you should try to eliminate as much of the native bacteria and such to give the tree a chance to recover. A few articles I have read suggest keeping the native soil around the root ball to help ease the tree into potting soil. Which is best?

 

[raydomz]

I can't say I've ever read anything about fully removing all traces of native soil.
I have however had the chance to see old imported trees (50+ years) that still have native soil attached..
I may have my facts mixed up on this, but it is my understanding that in Japan it is customary to leave some of the native soil.

Your trees will probably be fine.

 

[amkhalid]

Depends on the species and the amount of roots.

For an elm collected with a lot of roots, I would have no worries about barerooting it. You will end up doing it eventually anyway. Sooner you can work bonsai soil into the rootball, the quicker it will develop.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

Most of the research I have done suggests that you should try to eliminate as much of the native bacteria and such to give the tree a chance to recover. A few articles I have read suggest keeping the native soil around the root ball to help ease the tree into potting soil. Which is best?

On freshly collected material I would leave the soil alone as much as possible ... if you think about it for a minute why would you want to remove the soil who's ecosystem is already sustaining the tree you collected... after a few years and the tree starts recovering you can remove the old soil and move into bonsai soil....

now there are cedar elms and I know they are pretty tough and prolific growers so I would say you are probably pretty safe but YMMV ... we don't collect much in the way of D material around here so I mostly only ever have to deal with nursery material which we have bare rooted (8' Acer P. and larger) and had them work out okay...

Hopefully someone with more D collecting knowledge can chime in.... but I get the feeling that success lies more in how much root you collected and less in how much soil you retain or remove...

ok now we want to see pictures.... cuz thats only fair... Been thinking I need a decent elm in the collection... just have the Zelkova and it needs lots of work... tho we are getting a Siberian Elm raft soon which will be lots of fun

 

[Vance Wood]

Bare rooting is probably not a problem with the Cedar Elm, or any Elm for that matter but Ang31---is correct, this can be a species dependant subject that should be researched before prodeecing.

Here is a fact that should be remembered: All trees at one point or another should have all of the old soil removed but usually over successive potting cycles. This applies to collected as well as all stages of bonsai. What happens if this is not done is the development of a concrete core around the base of the trunk. This can cause a severe inequality of moisture distrubution that in turn can cause root rot. Usually, if repotting is done by the book and properly, you will have cycled new soil around the base of the tree every three potting cycles. In turn this creates the kind of environment that allows new roots to form close in toward the trunk, and not be forced outward away from the base.

 

[Gene Deci]

Most trees have a symbiotic relation with a type of fungus called mycorrhizae which lives in the soil and facilitates the absortion of nutrients. Some (like white pine) are more dependent than others. Bare rooting can be detrimental for those species if it washes away all the mycorrhizae. Your cedar elms should be fine but if you are ever in doubt it doesn't hurt to leave some of the original soil.

 

[Vance Wood]

Most trees have a symbiotic relation with a type of fungus called mycorrhizae which lives in the soil and facilitates the absortion of nutrients. Some (like white pine) are more dependent than others. Bare rooting can be detrimental for those species if it washes away all the mycorrhizae. Your cedar elms should be fine but if you are ever in doubt it doesn't hurt to leave some of the original soil.

You are right about mycorrhizae especially in Pines. However, this fungus is produced naturally within the root system just like certain bacteria are formed in our gut to help with digestion. Not meaning to be critical of your post but to someone who is new to this your last sentance could be understood to say it is best to leave some of the original soil. You don't add for how long. It is important to leave some original soil at first to make sure mycorrhizae has colonized the new soil. But; over time all of the old soil should be removed in stages or you court a fine case if root rot.

 

[Gene Deci]

It is important to leave some original soil at first to make sure mycorrhizae has colonized the new soil. But; over time all of the old soil should be removed in stages or you court a fine case if root rot.

I totally agree with this clarification.

 

[rockm]

Cedar elm is very capable of being barerooted at collection. I've collected a few and ALWAYS bare root them--bacteria is NOT the reason. It is that native soil (usually fine sugar sand and clay) clogs drainage. You want very good drainage with a newly collected tree.

Bare rooting them doesn't really affect them all that much. If they're in reasonable bonsai quality soil, it's not a problem.

You can be very aggressive with root and top pruning with this species. I collect by measuring out from the trunk about eight or nine inches, digging down, severing all the roots in that diameter, then undercutting about three inches down. I trunk chop at the same time. Plant the new trunk in a pot that closely fits the remaining root mass and fill with regular bonsai soil. I have kept them frost free and moist as they recover.

Wait for new buds, depending on the age and thickness of the bark this can take a month or even two to show.

Don't worry about mycorrhiza. I don't think this species needs it, or even has it at collection. If it needs it, the approprirate species of myc (myc is species-specific, what works for pine may not be valuable for an elm) will return naturally.

 

[Vance Wood]

Cedar elm is very capable of being barerooted at collection. I've collected a few and ALWAYS bare root them--bacteria is NOT the reason. It is that native soil (usually fine sugar sand and clay) clogs drainage. You want very good drainage with a newly collected tree.

Bare rooting them doesn't really affect them all that much. If they're in reasonable bonsai quality soil, it's not a problem.

You can be very aggressive with root and top pruning with this species. I collect by measuring out from the trunk about eight or nine inches, digging down, severing all the roots in that diameter, then undercutting about three inches down. I trunk chop at the same time. Plant the new trunk in a pot that closely fits the remaining root mass and fill with regular bonsai soil. I have kept them frost free and moist as they recover.

Wait for new buds, depending on the age and thickness of the bark this can take a month or even two to show.

Don't worry about mycorrhiza. I don't think this species needs it, or even has it at collection. If it needs it, the approprirate species of myc (myc is species-specific, what works for pine may not be valuable for an elm) will return naturally.

I believe that this is correct. Many people make a much bigger deal out of mycorrhiza than it actually is. The trees that need it make it, even if there is none. One time just for an experiment I brutalized a Scots Pine. I bare rooted the tree and washed the roots. I pruned the tree and wired the branches to shape-----on the Fourth of July. The tree did just fine. It did not sit and sulk as some Pines are prone to do. This was one of my experiments on summer repotting but note the results on the mycorrhiza, there was none left when I was finished and I added none.

You are also correct about adding mycorrhiza; if you don't have the right species specific you are probably wasting your time and money if you bought the stuff.

 

[Klytus]

We have two suppliers readily available,http://rootgrow.co.uk/ ,this company supply garden Centres with televisual information devices triggered by movement sensors to educate gardeners as to the advantages of the product.

WolfGarten also have the same sort of system to explain the benefits of their tools,good tools,i enjoy using them especially the large hoe.

The other supplier is http://www.davidaustinroses.com/english/Advanced.asp?PageId=2153 ,this company are slightly lower in profile.

Testing the Root Grow this year using seeds of the Solanaceae to determine if an appreciable difference can be seen between the innoculated and the uninnoculated.

Good luck.

 

[garywood]

I believe that this is correct. Many people make a much bigger deal out of mycorrhiza than it actually is. The trees that need it make it, even if there is none.

@Vance, could you explain this process of making its own Mycorrhiza?

 

[Vance Wood]

I believe that this is correct. Many people make a much bigger deal out of mycorrhiza than it actually is. The trees that need it make it, even if there is none.

@Vance, could you explain this process of making its own Mycorrhiza?

I don't think the arborists understand it. There are so many subjects about living organisms that we have an idea about or knowledge of but, we don't have a grasp of how it really works. But here is one example. When a human baby is born its gut is void of an important bacteria that aids in the digestion of food. This is why babies get what is called colic, it's because the baby cannot digest food properly and have to be feed carefully or you get a very sick child. But with time some sort of symbiotic reaction takes place in the baby's gut and the bacteria forms and the colic disappears. The same is true with plants that have a symbiotic relationship with the mycrrohiza fungus. Each variety forms its own form of this fungus. I don't know how it happens, I don't know why it happens I just know it does happen. On the other side of the issue I have seen Pines that had all of this element stripped away and they survived and flurished. However within a year the fungus was back.

 

[Gene Deci]

A fungus is a plant in its own right which reproduces by spores or vegatatively. The proper species of mycrrohiza will thrive when it starts where it can form a symbiotic relation with its proper host species, the other species will not. Eventually it wiil become established in a pot even if none was there to start with. But some species of tree would do better if it were there all along.

 

[Klytus]

Looks like an Elm would be needing an vasicular-arbuscular endomycorrhizal symbiont,http://www.nifg.org.uk/ecto.htm

I would underline the word endomycorrhizal if i could.

 

[Klytus]

This site sheds light on ecto http://mycorrhizas.info/ecm.html and endo http://mycorrhizas.info/vam.html

I never new Amanita Muscaria was or is classified as an ectomycorrhiza.

 

[travislivid]

Thanks everyone. Everything and more that I hoped to learn! Rockm is exactly right every thing I am collecting has packed in clay dirt. Even new to bonsai I have probably paid attention to making sure the soil was very well draining. For that reason i have had to bare root all the ones i have collected. It is good to hear about the hardiness of cedar elm. The first 2 I collected a month ago had a hand full of green leaves When they came out of the ground. I cleaned off all the clay and cleaned the roots, potted up with nice coarse soil using decomposed granite. 4 weeks later they even still have those green leaves. It has stayed pretty warm and humid here this month so I think they are happy enough.

I am taking pictures tomorrow and posting up what I am working with.
Thanks!