Bald cypress left in the ground for thks season...

[AaronThomas]

Wait

YES! HAHAHAAH I was referring to the Smoke posts....

Sooooo, whats with the tape on the base???

So I have been messing with adding pressure to the base of the leader with 2 lengths of bamboo post to force the leader in the direction of the chop. Sounds weird but it seems to work. I have 6 Cypress and have done this to 4 of them.... the 4 I added pressure to were straighter than the ones I did not. Maybe its just a coincidence.

This one I did not add pressure. The leader is one year old.


This one I added pressure... it is also a years worth of progression.

 

[AaronThomas]

@Matt B
Sorry Matt... didn’t mean to hijack your thread

 

[Matt B]

No problem at all. Let's not get all worked up over differences of technique. I appreciate all input and looking to learn above all else. As a noob, I consider myself no different than any other noob in that I want my bonsai to develop RIGHT DAMNED NOW. AsI have not yet learned the patience that develops with experience, I am looking to start with a plan, and execute. It is really hard for me to just step back and let it go wild, because I wonder if instead of the tree wasting a lot of its growth potential this year creating a bunch of branches that I will later cut off, it can be encouraged to focus all of that growth potential into growing and thickening a leader to create the taper we all desire. If a front can be chosen and a leader encouraged, it would stand to reason that the tree could be collected with a whole growing season's head start on its progression.

In the end, I have been out to the site on my hands and knees crawling around the tree waiting for inspiration to hit me like a lightning bolt, and aside from choosing a front that virtually chose itself due to the multiple deficiencies I already detailed, the "lightning" has amounted to the equivalent voltage of an electric barbecue starter.

If I could be sure that flooding wouldn't harm the cut tree, I am leaning towards chopping back to the orange line, because I figure that due to the existing thickness of the trunk, the new leader will have to go 2 years before it will itself be chopped to either create a canopy or more taper with yet another leader. It seems like the most direct path to the goal. Please forgive my noobish impatience.

After 3 seasons, I'd like to have something that starts to resemble this crude, childishly-drawn illustration:

As can be seen, my artistic prowess is legendary.

 

[Dav4]

Without knowing what exists below the swampy soil- there's apt to be a fair bit more trunk and root spread that you can't see under the muck-- it's a waste of time trying to make meaningful design decisions until after collection and recovery. Styling a tree before collection is putting the cart way in front of the horse.

 

[Zach Smith]

Just leave it alone and don't put too much thought into it at this point. You're thinking five moves ahead, when the only move necessary is to let the tree grow. Also don't chop it again - same reason. Eventually you will chop again, but it will most likely be at a spot you didn't think of when it was first chopped. Let the tree decide how to grow. You have about three years before it's time to chop again and lift.

 

[rockm]

Just leave it alone and don't put too much thought into it at this point. You're thinking five moves ahead, when the only move necessary is to let the tree grow. Also don't chop it again - same reason. Eventually you will chop again, but it will most likely be at a spot you didn't think of when it was first chopped. Let the tree decide how to grow. You have about three years before it's time to chop again and lift.

I completely agree with Zach. You're getting waay too far ahead of your self. Heck it's not even out of the ground yet (which brings on another question--why leave it in place? Why not dig it before the gators are active in late winter?) Anyway, chopping collected trees too low is a mistake. Can be a big one. Doing so limits your options in favor of a "final" image being imagined BEFORE you can see the nebari--beneath the surface soil...Without knowing what the "complete" stump is going to look like, you could be designing the tree backwards...the front you are aiming for now, could be the back of the tree if the nebari suggests so....

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Matt B
The last three posters are among the top 10 or so most experienced tree collectors (Zach) or growers (RockM, Dav4)
Listen to them.

 

[Johnathan]

Without knowing what exists below the swampy soil- there's apt to be a fair bit more trunk and root spread that you can't see under the muck-- it's a waste of time trying to make meaningful design decisions until after collection and recovery. Styling a tree before collection is putting the cart way in front of the horse.

Just leave it alone and don't put too much thought into it at this point. You're thinking five moves ahead, when the only move necessary is to let the tree grow. Also don't chop it again - same reason. Eventually you will chop again, but it will most likely be at a spot you didn't think of when it was first chopped. Let the tree decide how to grow. You have about three years before it's time to chop again and lift.

These have been the points I have been trying to convey.

As a noob, I consider myself no different than any other noob in that I want my bonsai to develop RIGHT DAMNED NOW. AsI have not yet learned the patience that develops with experience, I am looking to start with a plan, and execute.

You've been given the plan and how and when to execute it. Like you said patience comes from experience. I've killed trees because of everything from lack of knowledge to laziness to poor execution to wanting to do to much to fast. Its all about learning.

I'm far from the level of Zach and Rockm and Dav, but I've come to respect all of them, and their opinions are true and tried. Like @Leo in N E Illinois said these aren't just noobs giving you advice anymore... and Leo is basically a walking encyclopedia so he knows what he is talking about as well.

I only have 1 BC, but they are dear to my heart as a native of Louisiana. Treat the tree with kindness and respect and it will give you all it has in return.

 

[rockm]

No problem at all. Let's not get all worked up over differences of technique. I appreciate all input and looking to learn above all else. As a noob, I consider myself no different than any other noob in that I want my bonsai to develop RIGHT DAMNED NOW. AsI have not yet learned the patience that develops with experience, I am looking to start with a plan, and execute. It is really hard for me to just step back and let it go wild, because I wonder if instead of the tree wasting a lot of its growth potential this year creating a bunch of branches that I will later cut off, it can be encouraged to focus all of that growth potential into growing and thickening a leader to create the taper we all desire. If a front can be chosen and a leader encouraged, it would stand to reason that the tree could be collected with a whole growing season's head start on its progression.

In the end, I have been out to the site on my hands and knees crawling around the tree waiting for inspiration to hit me like a lightning bolt, and aside from choosing a front that virtually chose itself due to the multiple deficiencies I already detailed, the "lightning" has amounted to the equivalent voltage of an electric barbecue starter.

If I could be sure that flooding wouldn't harm the cut tree, I am leaning towards chopping back to the orange line, because I figure that due to the existing thickness of the trunk, the new leader will have to go 2 years before it will itself be chopped to either create a canopy or more taper with yet another leader. It seems like the most direct path to the goal. Please forgive my noobish impatience.

After 3 seasons, I'd like to have something that starts to resemble this crude, childishly-drawn illustration:
View attachment 309268
As can be seen, my artistic prowess is legendary.

. Planning here to make a "front" place branches on it is well, silly. Sorry to be blunt, but the foundation of your tree (the nebari) is not even visible. It is the most important part of the tree, as it sets the tone for the rest of the tree above it. It is WHAT YOU ARE COLLECTING TREES TO GET. Ignoring it at such an early stage misses the point of collecting trees entirely. If you want a tree you can make such immediate plans for, start with a seedling or a nursery stock tree. The nebari is so important on collected trees because it can't be altered. It is what it is.

This tree COULD have a decent one under the muck, but it could also be a mess. It could be one sided, a dominant root could look like a bridge and be separated from the main root mass, etc. (BTW, that could well be the case with that dominant root in front).

Also food for thought, collecting BC is typically done ALL AT ONCE.--rough chop, dug up. Leaving trees in the field offers no real developmental advantages and considerable disadvantages (gators being one in your area). By leaving it, you have left it at a considerable disadvantage with the competing vegetation. Trees in the wild are competing for resources with neighboring plants. By removing the top and its growth, you have set their tree far back in the race. It now has to expend resources to catch up in that competition. If it had been dug at the time of the chop and containerized, you would help provide those resources, instead of the tree having to compete for them. I have left trees in the woods after chops with bad experiences. Almost to a tree, they weakened and died because of that initial trunk chop...In containers, trees from the same areas have no problems with recovery.

BC are among the easier native species to collect. They are not dug up, they are sawed out of the muck. They are very capable of regenerating their root mass quickly--especially in your region.

 

[AaronThomas]

I will always defer to the guys that have been at it longer and have the utmost respect for them however I totally disagree that making design decisions now is a waste of time. The tree inspired him so coming up with design ideas now I think is a huge part of the development process. Once the layers are pealed back... ie. cutting and pulling the tree and observing new growth... then the design will in tern be adjusted accordingly. I do agree that the actual doing process will unfold over time.

I apologize if my advice in suggesting chopping again (as I thought he just made his chop) was incorrect... but Matt seemed to have decided on a couple of leaders.

(which brings on another question--why leave it in place? Why not dig it before the gators are active in late winter?)

Could he safely cut out the tree and pull out now? Just clarifying as the other posts suggest leaving it alone. Would be great if he could...

 

[Matt B]

Thanks for all of the wisdom and advice from the veteran members. With this advice in mind, at this point I have only 2 choices: Do nothing and leave it in place or collect it now and take it out of Darwin's system by controlling its environment.

I can see the wisdom of both approaches. Since the underground structure of the tree is still unknown and thus a logical front can't yet be determined, if I were to collect the tree now, the answer to the root structure could at least be known, and possibly a front determined. Additionally, proper care and environmental control may yield good growth this season even though a lot of energy will be spent by the tree in developing new roots.

On the other hand, another season in place will allow the tree to recover with its existing root system intact leaving it more energy to put towards above the soil structure and foliage. Though leaving it in place may possibly put the tree at a competitive disadvantage in obtaining the resources it needs to push that structure and foliar growth.

Would pulling the tree now be advisable given our long growth season in Florida? Our season really doesn't end until the first cold snap, usually sometime in late December or early January.

 

[rockm]

I will always defer to the guys that have been at it longer and have the utmost respect for them however I totally disagree that making design decisions now is a waste of time. The tree inspired him so coming up with design ideas now I think is a huge part of the development process. Once the layers are pealed back... ie. cutting and pulling the tree and observing new growth... then the design will in tern be adjusted accordingly. I do agree that the actual doing process will unfold over time.

I apologize if my advice in suggesting chopping again (as I thought he just made his chop) was incorrect... but Matt seemed to have decided on a couple of leaders.


Could he safely cut out the tree and pull out now? Just clarifying as the other posts suggest leaving it alone. Would be great if he could...

You're confusing the raw appeal and potential a trunk in the wild has to have to make it worth collecting, with an actual design. I've found that initial appeal is great--it involves a hazy suggestion of where a tree might develop as bonsai. However, it is NOT a great idea to solidify and impose a final design on a tree the day you dig it up. Doing so limits you and the tree. "Design decisions" are a sliding scale and presupposing too many all at once up front again limits you and your options. Assigning design decisions on tree that remains half buried (and there is ALOT of more of that trunk base that's under the mud), is a big mistake.

The tree could probably be dug out now, but at great risk. BC should be dug all at once early in the growing season. Fla. collectors would have a better idea on current collectability...

 

[rockm]

Thanks for all of the wisdom and advice from the veteran members. With this advice in mind, at this point I have only 2 choices: Do nothing and leave it in place or collect it now and take it out of Darwin's system by controlling its environment.

I can see the wisdom of both approaches. Since the underground structure of the tree is still unknown and thus a logical front can't yet be determined, if I were to collect the tree now, the answer to the root structure could at least be known, and possibly a front determined. Additionally, proper care and environmental control may yield good growth this season even though a lot of energy will be spent by the tree in developing new roots.

On the other hand, another season in place will allow the tree to recover with its existing root system intact leaving it more energy to put towards above the soil structure and foliage. eaving it in place may possibly put the tree at a competitive disadvantage in obtaining the resources it needs to push that structure and foliar growth.

Would pulling the tree now be advisable given our long growth season in Florida? Our season really doesn't end until the first cold snap, usually sometime in late December or early January.

Anything you do now only weakens the tree further. You've removed its "food making" system above, yet left all of its roots below demanding those resources...I'd let it be and come back for it next February, but I'm well North. Again an experienced Fla. collector is your best bet for advice on if it's safe to dig now.

 

[AaronThomas]

@rockm
I completely understand.... I think we're saying the same thing. I just suck and verbalizing.
Thanks!

 

[Johnathan]

I think the biggest thing to takeaway is not that it's necessarily wrong to choose a design now, but until the tree has been collected and exposed in it's entirety it would be foolish to make a decision without seeing the entire picture, considering the most important part of the design could be and more than likely is still covered up in the ground.

That being said, playing devil's advocate I bet the tree could be collected safely at this time.

JUST DO IT!!!! 1 of the best pieces of advice I've gleaned from this forum (@AaronThomas ironically came from Smoke ) And that was different things work in different climates and the only way to know for sure what works where you are is to just do it.

So from a logical perspective I say to wait until spring... From a devil's advocate learning perspective I say to just dig it now and see what happens.

I'd take a quick look at some of the BC collection videos and blogs from people like Zack, Mullet, Bill etc etc then have at it!

 

[rockm]

I think the biggest thing to takeaway is not that it's necessarily wrong to choose a design now, but until the tree has been collected and exposed in it's entirety it would be foolish to make a decision without seeing the entire picture, considering the most important part of the design could be and more than likely is still covered up in the ground.

That being said, playing devil's advocate I bet the tree could be collected safely at this time.

JUST DO IT!!!! 1 of the best pieces of advice I've gleaned from this forum (@AaronThomas ironically came from Smoke ) And that was different things work in different climates and the only way to know for sure what works where you are is to just do it.

So from a logical perspective I say to wait until spring... From a devil's advocate learning perspective I say to just dig it now and see what happens.

I'd take a quick look at some of the BC collection videos and blogs from people like Zack, Mullet, Bill etc etc then have at it!

I'm not so quick to say it's collectible now. It's already spent resources regenerating new foliage. Removing its roots will probably kill those and further stress the tree to expend more waning resources to replace it. There may be, or may not be, enough time for it to regrow a root system and top foliage by the end of the growing season. I wouldn't risk it. As things are now, the damage is half of what would be imposed by a late collection that takes all of the roots...

 

[Matt B]

Test

 

[Matt B]

For better or worse, I have collected the tree. From all I read in various posts in this and other threads they are quite tough, and I believe despite a small setback from the collection at this time of year, it should pull through partially because our growth season is so long. As was suggested by the veterans in this forum, trying to chop to select leaders and decide fronts and so on was putting the cart before the horse before we see what lies beneath the surface in the root structure of the tree. Additionally, having severely limited its competitive advantage with respect to its neighbors by
trunk chopping it, the ability to give the tree its own unlimited supply of resources should leave it with better potential than it had in the swamp.

 

[Matt B]

I collected the tree using a reciprocating saw to trench out in a 12 inch circle, and dug out one side to get the saw in at an angle to cut the taproot. I wrapped the rootball it in a wet towel, put it in a 5 gallon bucket and took it straight home, where I used the hose and my fingers to remove all the muck from the roots. After removing the silt and foreign roots, it looks to not have had any irregularities in the roots, and seems to be left with enough root structure to grow out a fresh set of feeders. After photos, I cut back what remained of the large taproot, and potted it up in a mix of pumice and sifted bark fines. I am prepared for the fact that the tree will lose some of the new shoots, and pout for a while before turning around. I put the tree in a location with filtered sun to recover for the time being. When it shows some new growth, I'll move it to a brighter location.

Pics to come...

 

[Matt B]