Arthur Joura's latest post
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milehigh_7
Mister 500,000
LOL as soon as I saw the names over at IBC I remembered why I left...
eferguson1974
Chumono
Hope your not saying I hate Japan or gays. Im neither but Im no hater either. I am for using what works and is pleasing from any culture, if it works well and is well done. Bonsai has Asian roots (pun intended) but anyone can do it. Like karate or sushi/sashimi from Asia or beer is from Europe, but we (as a culture) use them as if they are ours. They have become ours like a naturalized tree species becomes part of the landscape. If that tree is useful we use it, eating fruits or building with lumber, whatever. If you think about it, America at least was built by mixing cultures in a unique manner and adopting the parts we all like. So if we like bonsai its ok to do it our way. The Japanese may lauph at us like Mexicans lauph at our tacos. Whatever, its working for us.
I do have to ask, as a nonhatefull heterosexual male, why does the gay community have to tell everyone? Who cares? And on a bonsai forum? I fail to see why it is even mentioned. I went to a bar not long ago. Within two minutes the bartender told me shes a lesbian. I dont get it. I wasnt hitting on her or even flirting. Why do they have to tell everyone? What happened to dont ask dont tell? Its not that it offends me, I just dont need to know. If I made a pass at the bartender it would have made sence. Her haircut, clothing, and body language said it all anyway. Its obvious and she likes it that way. Why? Im using her example because Ive seen this all my life and still dont understand. I dont scream Im strait or think anyone cares. And here just isnt the place. If they dont want to be judged why bring up the subject? Sometimes I feel like they want extra rights because there gay, more than equal with heterosexuals. And if you know bringing something up that can cause ugly responses, why bring it up? It just doesnt make sence and isnt relevant in this context, a bonsai forum. Sorry for the rant. Like I said Im no hater. But I dont get gays making it known when noone should even care. Here or elsewhere other than situations that its a topic of interest.
I do have to ask, as a nonhatefull heterosexual male, why does the gay community have to tell everyone? Who cares? And on a bonsai forum? I fail to see why it is even mentioned. I went to a bar not long ago. Within two minutes the bartender told me shes a lesbian. I dont get it. I wasnt hitting on her or even flirting. Why do they have to tell everyone? What happened to dont ask dont tell? Its not that it offends me, I just dont need to know. If I made a pass at the bartender it would have made sence. Her haircut, clothing, and body language said it all anyway. Its obvious and she likes it that way. Why? Im using her example because Ive seen this all my life and still dont understand. I dont scream Im strait or think anyone cares. And here just isnt the place. If they dont want to be judged why bring up the subject? Sometimes I feel like they want extra rights because there gay, more than equal with heterosexuals. And if you know bringing something up that can cause ugly responses, why bring it up? It just doesnt make sence and isnt relevant in this context, a bonsai forum. Sorry for the rant. Like I said Im no hater. But I dont get gays making it known when noone should even care. Here or elsewhere other than situations that its a topic of interest.
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dick benbow
Omono
While i have the greatest respect for arthur and his contribution to "american" style bonai, my progression in this hobby could not termed as "baggage" when it comes to studying the japanese method. I've also spent time learning the ropes of penjing. both have contributed to my appreciation of the hobby. and set me in a position to start developing my own ideas with american trees. To me the more you know, the more you grow. One of my passions is teaching. Often my students come to me to ask about something they've read on a chat line. My favorite response is, Be like a spong and soak it ALL in...then use your present knowledge and the different skills each individual is gifted with and see if it makes sense to you. If it does, then go with it, if it doesn't it goes on the back burner until sometime in the future as your knowledge advances it begins to make more sense. Like our trees that advance with age, we do also.
As many of you know I've been a volunteer for years at the former Weyerhaeuser, now Pacific Bonsai Museum. Working with the former curator, David De Groot, I had things down to where I felt i had arrived. I was reminded yesterday during some repotting with the new curator, that he has different ways of doing things, from sinching in screening on the bottom of the pot to steel wire to wire in the tree to the pot. So it reminds me that no matter how much you know and are comfortable with, there is always something new to learn. As a high school student, I wasn't much on history classes. But as i aged, I began to respect the truth that if you don't understand what history can teach you, then you make (repeat) the same errors as in the past.
So I quess all this reteric could be condensed to say, I appreciate Arthur and the destination he has arrived at. For me, I'm headed for the same place but via a different route.
As many of you know I've been a volunteer for years at the former Weyerhaeuser, now Pacific Bonsai Museum. Working with the former curator, David De Groot, I had things down to where I felt i had arrived. I was reminded yesterday during some repotting with the new curator, that he has different ways of doing things, from sinching in screening on the bottom of the pot to steel wire to wire in the tree to the pot. So it reminds me that no matter how much you know and are comfortable with, there is always something new to learn. As a high school student, I wasn't much on history classes. But as i aged, I began to respect the truth that if you don't understand what history can teach you, then you make (repeat) the same errors as in the past.
So I quess all this reteric could be condensed to say, I appreciate Arthur and the destination he has arrived at. For me, I'm headed for the same place but via a different route.
armetisius
Chumono
When you all have flailed and fumed and screamed and huffed it still comes down to,
at the present time, American style bonsai is a myth. A big fuzzy rumped unicorn with
a rainbow tongue and purple tail. Or at least as real an entity as the aforementioned critter.
To believe that it exists is to lie and most importantly to lie to yourself. We, as a nation of
innovators and "tinkerers", are hell bent that we will do it our way. Yet when our way conflicts
with the aesthetic senses of others arguments ensue.
I chose to look at "Japanese" bonsai much like the salon/gallery system of art espoused by the
Royal Academy in Britan and its counter-parts in France, Autstria, Spain, Italy, etc. from the
mid-to late 19th century. Things are this way, and should be painted in this way, not too much
of this color, this and that composition, etc. RULES.
Then came the imprsesionist, mingleing with art nouveaux, followed by the dadist,
modernists/Deco, abstactionists, pot-moderns, etc. to end up with the hodge podge we have
that passes for American art. Bitching, griping, and bs all the way through all of it. But very
few rules.
We are going through these same problems with our bonsai because we go to shows to get the
acclaim, we feel we are due, for our efforts only to be told "good try but no cigar". We are
attempting to show van Gogh's "Starry Night" at the Paris Spring salons of 1863. And we get
our little feelings hurt when we are told that we didn't follow the rules closely enough. Grow
your trees your way if you want but don't moan and wail when you invite the jurists of the
grand "Acadamie" to judge these same shows. Legitimacy is what you seek but is not available
from that source. They are steeped in the rules and you are asking tea to become coffee purely
at your "say so". In spite of what you would like to believe; doesn't happen that way.
at the present time, American style bonsai is a myth. A big fuzzy rumped unicorn with
a rainbow tongue and purple tail. Or at least as real an entity as the aforementioned critter.
To believe that it exists is to lie and most importantly to lie to yourself. We, as a nation of
innovators and "tinkerers", are hell bent that we will do it our way. Yet when our way conflicts
with the aesthetic senses of others arguments ensue.
I chose to look at "Japanese" bonsai much like the salon/gallery system of art espoused by the
Royal Academy in Britan and its counter-parts in France, Autstria, Spain, Italy, etc. from the
mid-to late 19th century. Things are this way, and should be painted in this way, not too much
of this color, this and that composition, etc. RULES.
Then came the imprsesionist, mingleing with art nouveaux, followed by the dadist,
modernists/Deco, abstactionists, pot-moderns, etc. to end up with the hodge podge we have
that passes for American art. Bitching, griping, and bs all the way through all of it. But very
few rules.
We are going through these same problems with our bonsai because we go to shows to get the
acclaim, we feel we are due, for our efforts only to be told "good try but no cigar". We are
attempting to show van Gogh's "Starry Night" at the Paris Spring salons of 1863. And we get
our little feelings hurt when we are told that we didn't follow the rules closely enough. Grow
your trees your way if you want but don't moan and wail when you invite the jurists of the
grand "Acadamie" to judge these same shows. Legitimacy is what you seek but is not available
from that source. They are steeped in the rules and you are asking tea to become coffee purely
at your "say so". In spite of what you would like to believe; doesn't happen that way.
Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
That is not what happened or what was said. It is a very long thread and there is some significant information in it. Too often, when we read something that seems contrary to what we think. Instead of engaging in some educated debate, we "F" bomb the subject and all sorts of things, attempting to demean and diminish someone else that is doing the same thing we are doing; voicing an opinion.
To Grove I say this: You are entitled to your opinion, you're entitled to voice it but; very often the value of your opinion is measured by the quality of your work. I could be wrong, and I probably am wrong, but I don't think I have ever seen a photo of a tree you have worked on. When one comes from a position of wanting to reinvent the wheel, metaphorically speaking, I think they should have to put up examples of what they claim.
I have this gnawing suspicion that your gayness, in this case, is going to be used as an excuse as to why your point of view was not accepted. You can be gay or straight or undecided, being wrong or being right does not depend on where you put it, it depends on the value of your argument and as I said, the value of your work and efforts.
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Geo
Chumono
No need to bash IBC. There are several of the same names on this forum too.
I think this IBC thread is very educative at least. I could see some swords crossed, some people talked about the same things by different way, as usualIy... And I was shocked reading that bonsai is not AJ's hobby. Can't believe. If only everybody could do his job as good as AJ. Admirable.
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kakejiku
Chumono
Mr. Joura's post is relevant to his situation. He is a good employee to follow his direct supervisor's goals. And you can see the end result of how it helped to grow and flourish the art of ____ in the Carolinas.
This is not the story of the development of the art of ____ in every other part of the country. California, for example, cultivated the interest through Japanese Americans who were willing and very good at teaching to interested 白人、黒人 etc. One would expect to find a much more Japanese element and perhaps tradition in this part of the country as a result.
So you are probably going to see pockets or areas throughout the United States with differing opinions and degrees to the "Japaneseness" of the art of _____.
I learned to make scrolls in Japan. Because who is going to teach me from the foundation up, that has graduated from the technical school in Japan, in the US....
No one. So you are going to see a more traditional side to my work. The more I read (in Japanese), the more I can appreciate the centuries of accumulated knowledge for the art of Hyousou in general, and realize how much more I need to learn.
Perhaps, some of you feel the same way about the art of _____.
This is not the story of the development of the art of ____ in every other part of the country. California, for example, cultivated the interest through Japanese Americans who were willing and very good at teaching to interested 白人、黒人 etc. One would expect to find a much more Japanese element and perhaps tradition in this part of the country as a result.
So you are probably going to see pockets or areas throughout the United States with differing opinions and degrees to the "Japaneseness" of the art of _____.
I learned to make scrolls in Japan. Because who is going to teach me from the foundation up, that has graduated from the technical school in Japan, in the US....
No one. So you are going to see a more traditional side to my work. The more I read (in Japanese), the more I can appreciate the centuries of accumulated knowledge for the art of Hyousou in general, and realize how much more I need to learn.
Perhaps, some of you feel the same way about the art of _____.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
No.
Sorce
Sorce
GroveKeeper
Shohin
Well... fuck. This escalated quickly. Full disclosure, I was pretty drunk when I made that post, so I may have failed to properly express my feelings. Still, I find it a bit strange how much animosity and how many assumptions can be dredged up by mentioning one acronym.
I know people don't understand why it was necessary to bring up the fact that I am a member of the LGBTQ community. I did it for the sake of context. We're all victims to our experiences and unless you're a robot, they shape our perspectives on any given issue. I don't know how many of you have been told that something intrinsic about you as a person is "wrong." I have, and I have seen it happen to others. Because of these experiences, I object to the idea of an individual promoting their subjective opinion or standard as an objective fact. Especially when it's something as subjective and emotionally driven as art. As a result, I can't help seeing some degree of parity between my LGBTQ experiences and WHAT I SEE as a certain dogma present in the bonsai community.
Whether you view that as the tapestry of life experiences that have colored my perspective, or as a desire to unnecessarily inject my personal life into a conversation, is up to you.
I know people don't understand why it was necessary to bring up the fact that I am a member of the LGBTQ community. I did it for the sake of context. We're all victims to our experiences and unless you're a robot, they shape our perspectives on any given issue. I don't know how many of you have been told that something intrinsic about you as a person is "wrong." I have, and I have seen it happen to others. Because of these experiences, I object to the idea of an individual promoting their subjective opinion or standard as an objective fact. Especially when it's something as subjective and emotionally driven as art. As a result, I can't help seeing some degree of parity between my LGBTQ experiences and WHAT I SEE as a certain dogma present in the bonsai community.
Whether you view that as the tapestry of life experiences that have colored my perspective, or as a desire to unnecessarily inject my personal life into a conversation, is up to you.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I said it before, while the fire was just starting, if you want to defuse or add a positive note to your thread you might want to post a picture or two of a tree you are working on, have worked on, or fills the stylist void you hope to fill.
As to the gay thing; I hate to be right but this is what has happened, and what I said would happen. I would further suggest that most of the other problems you have in life come back to you insisting to be accepted for being a practicing Sodomite. I know the suicide argument, that does not fly either, hell Veterans are commiting suicide at a greater rate than gays but we don't go around saying, be nice to me or I'll kill myself. Want to know why???_______To use a word you seem to be fond of; nobody gives a fuck.
You want to be accepted? Make some trees, grow some trees, exhibit some trees. Impress us with you artistic ability, not you biopic view of the world. We all know you can piss on the floor; let's see you shit on the ceiling.
GrimLore
Bonsai Nut alumnus... we miss you
Didn't this end back in to 40's? Geesh...
Grimmy
Grimmy
AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
Arthur Joura started the above mentioned thread, writing:
When it started to take a bypass, I suggested opening a new thread: I'm interested on what's happening at North Carolina Arboretum, not in whether cucumber is part of the recipe of "real" Guacamole.
Now, 61 pages further, I realise that it's a way for people to speak out their mind. So far so good: after all it opened a door there that has opened a door here. Cultures, nationalities, sex preferences now: to me, as long as in a discussion different opinions can be voiced, all right, even if they're not heard by everyone, or shared by everyone.
As long as people don't throw insults at each other, of course.
If the passion for bonsai allows people of different cultures and origins, it's OK with me
When it started to take a bypass, I suggested opening a new thread: I'm interested on what's happening at North Carolina Arboretum, not in whether cucumber is part of the recipe of "real" Guacamole.
Now, 61 pages further, I realise that it's a way for people to speak out their mind. So far so good: after all it opened a door there that has opened a door here. Cultures, nationalities, sex preferences now: to me, as long as in a discussion different opinions can be voiced, all right, even if they're not heard by everyone, or shared by everyone.
As long as people don't throw insults at each other, of course.
If the passion for bonsai allows people of different cultures and origins, it's OK with me
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
When you become as legendary as Mr.Pall...whom I believe your referencing then you might possibility carry a bit more tout with your comment. Until then...your words seem rather paltry to me.
Nothing infuriates me more...when one with far less experience posts as you have done...and talks so disrespectfull of one in the bonsai world.
Stepping off my band wagon...and walking out of this thread.
(But,gosh...why would Mr.Pall wish to share any knowledge or his given time with ones so disrespectful. Yet...more is gained by a crumb he offers then by the ones who show disrespect.)
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Don't walk out on the thread. If you do then those that do what you hate win.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
True...But, I won't waist my time on ones who are so distrespectful. Especially when they are wet behind the ears.
One can disagree...fine. But lets take it a step further...RESPECT YOUR ELDERS for crying out loud! One can agree to disagree with tact! I think ones grow to bold hinding behind their computer monitor.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I agree with you but, we are faced with a generation that thinks it OK to disrespect those who have preceded them. In school they are allowed to flip off their teachers and in some cases assault them. If we don't, or can't stand up to them here, where do we draw the line?
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
Come now...Let's be nice.
Offering my hand...to pull ones out of gutter.
Offering my hand...to pull ones out of gutter.
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