Anyone else primarily use Cactus-Soil for bonsai?

[エドガー]

You are jumping through hoops to justify using cactus soil.

Yes, perhaps I am... but only because it was recommended to me by an old-school "professional" that's been doing it for several decades, he's from SoCal/LA, he knows every other professional in SoCal and the US that actually grows jbp and bonsai (not just styles them like the famous people), and grows/sells hundreds/thousands of his own seedlings (of course, he also cultivates old mature bonsai too obviously). He's not a "finished bonsai professional that only styles trees" like the famous hyped superstars... he's more of the "bonsai development/cultivation/propagation professional"

Herons is not a great source of soil advice. They're not in your climate,

True, he's in a different climate... He's actually in a much much wetter UK climate and region, than the hot desert of SoCal... and even then, he still says 100% akadama/inorganic dries much too fast in @7:44 in his video

Now... imagine if he tried 100% akadama/inorganic in an even hotter climate than the UK... SoCal... he'd definitely find it would dry even faster.


but this guys is in my climate and has a great article about soil:

Bonsai Soil | kuromatsubonsai.com

kuromatsubonsai.com

House of Bonsai is also in my climate and uses a lot of "soil conditioner" in their pots. (basically garden soil... worse and rougher quality than potting soil)

This is typical of basic soil. Developed by a professional in So. Cal.

Boon Bonsai Soil Mix

SuperFly Bonsai's Boon Mix This mix is the most commonly used and accepted mix by bonsai professionals around the world. Here in the United States it is known as "Boon Mix" after Boon Manakitivipart who pushed the mix to promote better bonsai tree health in America. Some also refer to it (in...

www.superflybonsai.com

Yes, I know Boon is well respected in the bonsai community. But he also has a professional-nursery/garden with an extensive drip-irrigation-system, a lot of shade cloth areas, apprentices, interns, workers.... to water his plants daily, or 2-3x per day when it's hot.
Is that much watering needed with 100% inorganic-mix in hot, dry, SoCal weather? I would think so.
His description should instead say:
"Is It Dirt?
No. Bonsai trees do not like "dirt" and will in most cases die if left in dirt over long periods of time. This is substrate.
But, Bonsai trees will also die in this substrate if not watered daily (or multiple times a day) during heat-waves"

For the best advice, I'd seek out a local club and see what they're using. I'd bet it's not all that expensive and they have done most of the legwork in gathering the ideal ingredients for your area.

Yes, the aforesaid jbp professional seedling/sapling grower (and also mature jbp grower) is the one that recommended it to me. He is from LA.
His mix is 2:1 ratio of cactus-soil & potting-soil... and it's what I've been using with good success. Just wanted to hear if anyone else was using it.
I may change it up a little, to be more like the following kuromatsubonsai percentages...

http://kuromatsubonsai.com/bonsai-soil/ ...also from SoCal, worked with John Naka, and is involved with many local clubs and House of Bonsai. He also uses a similar mix to what House of Bonsai uses (an LA bonsai nursery and bonsai club event venue)... around 20-40% organic material.

I will most likely try that next, around 1/3 organic-material and 2/3 inorganic-aggregate... either by"
1:1 of cactus-mix(which is 30% pumice and 70% organic) : DE
or
1:1:1 of pure-pumice : DE : potting-soil
...both of the above will get me to around 65% inorganic and 35% organic.


For a more organic of a mix:
I might even try a 50/50 mix of potting-soil and DE (50% organic material mix)... or even just simply use cactus-mix straight-up with no mixing at all (70% organic material, 30% pumice).. both of those ones will give the maximum buffer/headroom/protection for hot SoCal weather and heatwaves.

 

[rockm]

Yes, perhaps I am... but only because it was recommended to me by an old-school "professional" that's been doing it for several decades, he's from SoCal/LA, he knows every other professional in SoCal and the US that actually grows jbp and bonsai (not just styles them like the famous people), and grows/sells hundreds/thousands of his own seedlings (of course, he also cultivates old mature bonsai too obviously). He's not a "finished bonsai professional that only styles trees" like the famous hyped superstars... he's more of the "bonsai development/cultivation/propagation professional"


True, he's in a different climate... He's actually in a much much wetter UK climate and region, than the hot desert of SoCal... and even then, he still says 100% akadama/inorganic dries much too fast in @7:44 in his video

Now... imagine if he tried 100% akadama/inorganic in an even hotter climate than the UK... SoCal... he'd definitely find it would dry even faster.


but this guys is in my climate and has a great article about soil:

Bonsai Soil | kuromatsubonsai.com

kuromatsubonsai.com

House of Bonsai is also in my climate and uses a lot of "soil conditioner" in their pots. (basically garden soil... worse and rougher quality than potting soil)


Yes, I know Boon is well respected in the bonsai community. But he also has a professional-nursery/garden with an extensive drip-irrigation-system, a lot of shade cloth areas, apprentices, interns, workers.... to water his plants daily, or 2-3x per day when it's hot.
Is that much watering needed with 100% inorganic-mix in hot, dry, SoCal weather? I would think so.
His description should instead say:
"Is It Dirt?
No. Bonsai trees do not like "dirt" and will in most cases die if left in dirt over long periods of time. This is substrate.
But, Bonsai trees will also die in this substrate if not watered daily (or multiple times a day) during heat-waves"



Yes, the aforesaid jbp professional seedling/sapling grower (and also mature jbp grower) is the one that recommended it to me. He is from LA.
His mix is 2:1 ratio of cactus-soil & potting-soil... and it's what I've been using with good success. Just wanted to hear if anyone else was using it.
I may change it up a little, to be more like the following kuromatsubonsai percentages...

http://kuromatsubonsai.com/bonsai-soil/ ...also from SoCal, worked with John Naka, and is involved with many local clubs and House of Bonsai. He also uses a similar mix to what House of Bonsai uses (an LA bonsai nursery and bonsai club event venue)... around 20-40% organic material.

I will most likely try that next, around 1/3 organic-material and 2/3 inorganic-aggregate... either by"
1:1 of cactus-mix(which is 30% pumice and 70% organic) : DE
or
1:1:1 of pure-pumice : DE : potting-soil
...both of the above will get me to around 65% inorganic and 35% organic.


For a more organic of a mix:
I might even try a 50/50 mix of potting-soil and DE (50% organic material mix)... or even just simply use cactus-mix straight-up with no mixing at all (70% organic material, 30% pumice).. both of those ones will give the maximum buffer/headroom/protection for hot SoCal weather and heatwaves.

Like I said, just DO IT...FWIW, sometimes long-time growers get stuck in old-time ways...No one else is using cactus soil because there are other things that work better...

 

[エドガー]

No one else is using cactus soil because there are other things that work better...

Cactus soil is good stuff imo... mainly because it uses pumice (but, has organic matter too and a little sand).
Pumice doesn't break-down and compact like akadama, and also DE from what I've researched.
Pumice is also porous and retains a little water (not as much as DE and akadama tho).

Yes, organic-matter breaks down, can compact over a few years and needs re-potting... but definitely so does akadama and DE.

Akadama requires re-potting every 2-3 years or the plant will start to go downhill. Similar to organic matter.

 

[エドガー]

Has anyone found any retail-stores or local-store-sources that stock AxisDE?

What about any nurseries in SoCal that stock it?
(since online-buying-shipping is expensive)

I've read Optisorb (non-calcined) breaks down quite easily and turns into mush; so I am hesitant to use that brand.
But, I guess Napa 8822 is calcined and doesn't break-down? (or, at least doesn't break down as easily?)

Is Axis DE calcined or non-calcined?

 

[rockm]

Cactus soil is good stuff imo... mainly because it uses pumice (but, has organic matter too and a little sand).
Pumice doesn't break-down and compact like akadama, and also DE from what I've researched.
Pumice is also porous and retains a little water (not as much as DE and akadama tho).

Yes, organic-matter breaks down, can compact over a few years and needs re-potting... but definitely so does akadama and DE.

Akadama requires re-potting every 2-3 years or the plant will start to go downhill. Similar to organic matter.

It's good you're doing research and asking questions, but I'd submit that you have already reached a conclusion without actually using any of this for any amount of time. By all means, experiment with materials, but don't settle on one before you begin...then defend it with no actual experience.

Not meant as an insult, just an observation...

 

[エドガー]

It's good you're doing research and asking questions, but I'd submit that you have already reached a conclusion without actually using any of this for any amount of time. By all means, experiment with materials, but don't settle on one before you begin...then defend it with no actual experience.

Not meant as an insult, just an observation...

Yes, my experienced is limited... only pumice.
I've been using pumice ever since I started (yes, not that long because I'm a n00b). Hasn't broken down. It's in all 113 of my pots.

Have never used akadama... but every single re-potting I've ever seen of old akadama, it looks compacted and very broken down.

Have never used DE... only read about other's experience with it, some brands breaking down very easily (OptiSorb).

Why would I experiment with something others say might be problematic? (like OptiSorb that may break down easily/quickly, or 100% inorganic mix in SoCal desert weather)
I'd rather not experiment first-hand with something that may just break down and turn to compacted mush after only 6-12 months (OptiSorb?). Nor, a 100% inorganic mix in a desert environment if not watering 2-3x per day nor have workers watering them all day during summer.
That's a waste of time, effort and money. I'd rather do research first and get the right correct DE product. And, I'd rather have my plants alive than experiment with 100% inorganic mix in the desert.

 

[rockm]

Yes, my experienced is limited... only pumice.
I've been using pumice ever since I started (yes, not that long because I'm a n00b). Hasn't broken down. It's in all 113 of my pots.

Have never used akadama... but every single re-potting I've ever seen of old akadama, it looks compacted and very broken down.

Have never used DE... only read about other's experience with it, some brands breaking down very easily (OptiSorb).

Why would I experiment with something others say might be problematic? (like OptiSorb that may break down easily/quickly, or 100% inorganic mix in SoCal desert weather)
I'd rather not experiment first-hand with something that may just break down and turn to compacted mush after only 6-12 months (OptiSorb?). Nor, a 100% inorganic mix in a desert environment if not watering 2-3x per day nor have workers watering them all day during summer.
That's a waste of time, effort and money. I'd rather do research first and get the right correct DE product. And, I'd rather have my plants alive than experiment with 100% inorganic mix in the desert.

Why experiment with something others deem problematic? um, you're using cactus soil which most don't use because it's problematic. As for Akadama, there are several grades--including high fired which doesn't break down AT ALL...Akadama isn't the end all, but it's decent if you know how and which to use for your climate, as are several other ingredients =---there are also many types of pumice being sold too...

 

[エドガー]

Ok, I see your point and understand. Yes, there's diff grades and types for everything. Yes, my cactus-mix is problematic and not ideal at all.

I can't afford Akadama.. I will just experiment with DE. But, still unsure which brand to get. 8822, OptoSorb or AxisDE.
('Diatomite Rock' by Down To Earth has been discontinued from my research... they're all from the same EP company anyways.. but some are calcined and others are not)

Anyone have experience and can give insight/opinions with Axis DE?

Also, which retail-stores or nurseries stock Axis-DE? (I want to avoid online order shipping costs)

 

[rockm]

Ok, I see your point and understand. Yes, there's diff grades and types for everything. Yes, my cactus-mix is problematic and not ideal at all.

I can't afford Akadama.. I will just experiment with DE. But, still unsure which brand to get. 8822, OptoSorb or AxisDE.
('Diatomite Rock' by Down To Earth has been discontinued from my research... they're all from the same EP company anyways.. but some are calcined and others are not)

Anyone have experience and can give insight/opinions with Axis DE?

Also, which retail-stores or nurseries stock Axis-DE? (I want to avoid online order shipping costs)

Ok, I see your point and understand. Yes, there's diff grades and types for everything. Yes, my cactus-mix is problematic and not ideal at all.

I can't afford Akadama.. I will just experiment with DE. But, still unsure which brand to get. 8822, OptoSorb or AxisDE.
('Diatomite Rock' by Down To Earth has been discontinued from my research... they're all from the same EP company anyways.. but some are calcined and others are not)

Anyone have experience and can give insight/opinions with Axis DE?

Also, which retail-stores or nurseries stock Axis-DE? (I want to avoid online order shipping costs)

You're re-inventing the wheel...have you talked to anyone in a nearby club about what they're using--beyond the supplier you've listed? They've probably already done all this cost comparing--bonsai folk can be quite the pennypinchers and I'd bet someone out there has a mix that's affordable and effective.

I don't use Akadama. Too expensive for me too. Not worth the cost/benefit. I came up with decent soils by talking with locals about what they're using.

 

[エドガー]

but I'd submit that you have already reached a conclusion without actually using any of this for any amount of time.
...with no actual experience.

...um, you're using cactus soil which most don't use because it's problematic

If you think about it... what you say holds true for you and everyone else knocking on cactus-mix.
Have you ever really used it with your bonsai? Or, you're just making an assumption because of its' material components?
I've been using it with very good success so far. All my trees are super healthy and vigorous.

Also, all cactus-mixes are very different. Most probably relate "cactus-mix" with Miracle-Gro or mixes that look 100% organic.

 

[エドガー]

You're re-inventing the wheel...have you talked to anyone in a nearby club about what they're using--beyond the supplier you've listed? They've probably already done all this cost comparing--bonsai folk can be quite the pennypinchers and I'd bet someone out there has a mix that's affordable and effective.

I don't use Akadama. Too expensive for me too. Not worth the cost/benefit. I came up with decent soils by talking with locals about what they're using.

Have you read post #41 or my other posts?
Most people here (or anywhere really) follow advice from their local bonsai nurseries, professional and use the same old mix. House of Bonsai holds club events frequently. DG is popular in SoCal.. but I don't want to use it because there's no big benefit from it aside from weight (since it's not porous).

No one I've ever talked to uses DE in SoCal, it is relatively new (even Mirai is still experimenting with it)... seems like most that know of DE are mostly in the forums or deep geeky into bonsai.... Hence, why I ask for info and sources about DE here.

 

[rockm]

Have you read post #41 or my other posts?
Most people here (or anywhere really) follow advice from their local bonsai nurseries, professional and use the same old mix. House of Bonsai holds club events frequently. DG is popular in SoCal.. but I don't want to use it because there's no big benefit from it aside from weight (since it's not porous).

No one I've ever talked to uses DE in SoCal, it is relatively new (even Mirai is still experimenting with it)... seems like most that know of DE are mostly in the forums or deep geeky into bonsai.... Hence, why I ask for info and sources about DE here.

Most people who have "local bonsai nurseries" outside of So. Cal mostly have local bonsai nurseries that aren't all that knowledgeable. The folks who are knowledgeable about soil are mostly in clubs or study groups. That is where the soil revolution that erupted a decade or so ago began.

DE is NOT new. It's been around awhile.

 

[エドガー]

You're re-inventing the wheel...

No... I'm simply just asking a very simple question, "Which retail-stores or nurseries stock Axis-DE?"

Axis-DE is relatively unknown and new... even on these BNut forums.

 

[エドガー]

The folks who are knowledgeable about soil are mostly in clubs or study groups.

DE is NOT new. It's been around awhile.

Perhaps... but I can also simply just ask on the forums. The internet is more efficient, worldwide and bigger.

Of course the DE material isn't new. It's prehistoric, lol. But, DE is relatively new in bonsai and plant-cultivation. Don't think they were using it in the 20th century and before that.

 

[coh]

No... I'm simply just asking a very simple question, "Which retail-stores or nurseries stock Axis-DE?"

Axis-DE is relatively unknown and new... even on these BNut forums.

True, the axis product is relatively new, or at least, has only recently started being discussed in terms of bonsai soil. Still, if you use the search function and search for "axis" you'll find a number of threads where it has been talked about.

However, many people have been using DE in the form of NAPA 8822 (and perhaps other brands) and there are many threads about that. I don't know if there are any significant differences in the two in terms of hardness, composition, how well they hold up, but they are both DE. The big difference is the particle size, axis being much larger...almost seems too large (I have a couple of boxes I bought from @milehigh_7 but I haven't started experimenting with it). But I find the NAPA 8822 to be a little smaller than ideal. I think either could be made to work if you adjust other components, water appropriately, etc.

Ryan Neil (WARNING! TRIGGER WORD) was talking about DE a lot a year or two ago, but he hasn't mentioned it much recently. I don't know if that means he hasn't been happy with the tests he was doing, or if they just haven't been using it long enough to have formed a strong opinion about it.

 

[エドガー]

True, the axis product is relatively new, or at least, has only recently started being discussed in terms of bonsai soil. Still, if you use the search function and search for "axis" you'll find a number of threads where it has been talked about.

However, many people have been using DE in the form of NAPA 8822 (and perhaps other brands) and there are many threads about that. I don't know if there are any significant differences in the two in terms of hardness, composition, how well they hold up, but they are both DE. The big difference is the particle size, axis being much larger...almost seems too large (I have a couple of boxes I bought from @milehigh_7 but I haven't started experimenting with it). But I find the NAPA 8822 to be a little smaller than ideal. I think either could be made to work if you adjust other components, water appropriately, etc.

Ryan Neil (WARNING! TRIGGER WORD) was talking about DE a lot a year or two ago, but he hasn't mentioned it much recently. I don't know if that means he hasn't been happy with the tests he was doing, or if they just haven't been using it long enough to have formed a strong opinion about it.

Thanks for the info.

Have you ever used Optisorb? I've read a few posts that it breaks down easily (relatively easily crushed between fingers when wet) and turns into mush, quickly after 6-12 months.
Is that true?
If so, that sounds like trouble and a mistake.

 

[エドガー]

Ryan Neil (WARNING! TRIGGER WORD) was talking about DE a lot a year or two ago, but he hasn't mentioned it much recently. I don't know if that means he hasn't been happy with the tests he was doing, or if they just haven't been using it long enough to have formed a strong opinion about it.

Yeah.. it's possible.

But, I've noticed the occasional post where DE (even the popularly/successfully used brands) turns into mush, broken down or compacted much too quickly. ..this makes me kinda hesitant to use it.

 

[coh]

Thanks for the info.

Have you ever used Optisorb? I've read a few posts that it breaks down easily (relatively easily crushed between fingers when wet) and turns into mush, quickly after 6-12 months.
Is that true?
If so, that sounds like trouble and a mistake.

No, I haven't used it but I have read that somewhere on this site (about it breaking down). But I've also seen people say it doesn't break down, so I don't know...maybe someone got a bad bag. I think I have some sitting around that I was going to test but haven't gotten around to it.

BTW, how do you pronounce your name? I see your screen name and it always throws me...would be nice if there was an English translation/pronunciation to go with it!

 

[エドガー]

No, I haven't used it but I have read that somewhere on this site (about it breaking down). But I've also seen people say it doesn't break down, so I don't know...maybe someone got a bad bag. I think I have some sitting around that I was going to test but haven't gotten around to it.

BTW, how do you pronounce your name? I see your screen name and it always throws me...would be nice if there was an English translation/pronunciation to go with it!

Yeah... some say it breaks down, and some say it doesn't.... gets a bit confusing. I'd hate to need to re-pot after only 6-12 months... so maybe 8822 is a safer bet.

エドガー = E-Do-Gaa = Edgar

 

[エドガー]

No, I haven't used it but I have read that somewhere on this site (about it breaking down).

Just watched this guys' soil-series today:

He too mentions (and tests) that his 8822 def breaks down into mush. But, in his freeze-thaw test, it doesn't break down and turn mushy nearly as much as akadama.

But, I kinda question the pumice he's using... it looks very soft and brown, looks exactly like Hyuga (Japanese pumice). US pumice is much whiter, harder, sharper, probably fired at higher temps, more visible porosity - US white pumice is almost kinda like black-lava-rock/scoria but a bit softer/milder.