For what it's worth I've learned a lot here. This is the only bonsai forum I'm active on and I don't plan on changing that. Brent, Dale, Vance, Will, Chris, .. I've learned a lot from you all whether through your responses to my noobsai, reading your articles, reading your posts, rereading your articles. It would be a shame if any one of you were to leave. Please give Mr. Nut a chance to address the problem before you pack your bags.
Another "Talk Group" bites the dust!!
- Thread starter Dale Cochoy
- Start date
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
While I agree with this sentiment, you have left out one very important item. Most of the forums except for IBC do not have the experienced seasoned folk. They never have. In your opinion just who would you like to see attracted to a forum, that participates on any forum for that matter, here?
If anyone wishes to bath with the big boys then IBC is where to do it. I agree 100 percent. As far as I can tell the IBC forum pretty much moderates itself. With strict picture posting guidelines and Jim Lewis, most of the moderating is moving potensai from the main gallery to the potensai gallery.
IBC doesn't have riff raff because first you have to have a "bonsai" to post there. Not a wanna be, but a real tree that looks like something. It's very intimidateing to strike out and post a first time at IBC. As well it should be. I wouldn't want it any other way. Jim lets you know in no uncertain terms if your not up to snuff.
The problem with forums like this and bonsai TALK and chat and page and what the hell the next newbie forum is, is that there is too much talking and not enough bonsai-ing. Cut the rehtoric to a minimum and bring on the pictures.
I have always thought a good way to run a forum would be to limit the amount of characters (letters) in a post. If I owned or ran a forum I would have a 50 character minimum and a 3 photo minimum before you could post anything. Your signature would be included in the 50 characters
Al
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
While I agree with this sentiment, you have left out one very important item. Most of the forums except for IBC do not have the experienced seasoned folk. They never have. In your opinion just who would you like to see attracted to a forum, that participates on any forum for that matter, here?
If anyone wishes to bath with the big boys then IBC is where to do it. I agree 100 percent. As far as I can tell the IBC forum pretty much moderates itself. With strict picture posting guidelines and Jim Lewis, most of the moderating is moving potensai from the main gallery to the potensai gallery.
IBC doesn't have riff raff because first you have to have a "bonsai" to post there. Not a wanna be, but a real tree that looks like something. It's very intimidateing to strike out and post a first time at IBC. As well it should be. I wouldn't want it any other way. Jim lets you know in no uncertain terms if your not up to snuff.
The problem with forums like this and bonsai TALK and chat and page and what the hell the next newbie forum is, is that there is too much talking and not enough bonsai-ing. Cut the rehtoric to a minimum and bring on the pictures.
I have always thought a good way to run a forum would be to limit the amount of characters (letters) in a post. If I owned or ran a forum I would have a 50 character minimum and a 3 photo minimum before you could post anything. Your signature would be included in the 50 characters
Al
You left out KoB and AoB, both these sites are frequented by some of the biggest names in bonsai, Walter Pall, Rober Stevens, Budi, Rob Kempinski and others. Robert Stevens is doing on line critiques at KoB. Same story though, no crap tolerated.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I agree, I don't want to leave but some individuals make it difficult to carry on a decent conversation and the idea, as proposed by some, of moderators has in the past proved to be a disaster of clique ruled forums and beginners as moderators. I don't want to see that happen here either. I go back to my original point of a year or so ago, if people are required to post under their own names then the rhetoric will be toned down. It is real easy to post what every inflammatory crap you want while hiding behind some pseudonym.
agraham
Shohin
Vance,
I really don't think the pseudonym argument holds up.It's a straw dog.Unless you think some of the people using fake names are famous bonsai masters or your next door neighbor what difference does it make?Zelk is zelk.insee is insee.boondock is boondock.agraham is agraham.Heck...you don't even know if my real name is andy OR graham.If you had their real name.....what would you do?Look up their address and reprimand them by phone call?Slash their tires?Never speak to them again?It's a non issue.
As far as conversation?....many of the conversations quickly deteriorate into bashing when someone holds their opinion out to be the one and only way.There is a fine line between defending one's position and taking offense at a perceived insult.Unfortunately...there are a few in here who defend their opinions with so much "enthusiasm" that everything becomes a pissing match.There are also those who don't like their "expertise" to be questioned.
Keep in mind that disagreement and differing opinions are NOT a sign of disrespect.Not allowing for differing opinions and experiences is.
andy
I really don't think the pseudonym argument holds up.It's a straw dog.Unless you think some of the people using fake names are famous bonsai masters or your next door neighbor what difference does it make?Zelk is zelk.insee is insee.boondock is boondock.agraham is agraham.Heck...you don't even know if my real name is andy OR graham.If you had their real name.....what would you do?Look up their address and reprimand them by phone call?Slash their tires?Never speak to them again?It's a non issue.
As far as conversation?....many of the conversations quickly deteriorate into bashing when someone holds their opinion out to be the one and only way.There is a fine line between defending one's position and taking offense at a perceived insult.Unfortunately...there are a few in here who defend their opinions with so much "enthusiasm" that everything becomes a pissing match.There are also those who don't like their "expertise" to be questioned.
Keep in mind that disagreement and differing opinions are NOT a sign of disrespect.Not allowing for differing opinions and experiences is.
andy
Rick Moquin
Omono
Andy,
Although I support your point of view I can't help but support Vance's also. IMO folks are less likely to talk crap if not offered the umbrella of anonymity. You are absolutely correct that the learnt enthusiasts in our hobby do not use pseudonyms, they do not need to. But I leave you with this reflection: if we are to lend credence to what is said or advice offered, it is a lot easier to do so when we know the source, and we know this source is common. There are several enthusiasts out there that have different names on different forums. I have also come to find out that they do post differently. I guess is who would you trust the most an individual who is up front or one that goes through life with various alliases. In the beginning of the internet, anonymity was important because the safe guards (adequate) were not in place to protect individual privacy.
A pseudonym can be tarnished and life goes on, when your own name is tarnished, regardless of the reasons, it is IMO very difficult to re-establish ones credibility.
Edit: "I have also come to find out that they do post differently" not meaning the tone or exchanges but the information provided is differs from one post to the next.
Although I support your point of view I can't help but support Vance's also. IMO folks are less likely to talk crap if not offered the umbrella of anonymity. You are absolutely correct that the learnt enthusiasts in our hobby do not use pseudonyms, they do not need to. But I leave you with this reflection: if we are to lend credence to what is said or advice offered, it is a lot easier to do so when we know the source, and we know this source is common. There are several enthusiasts out there that have different names on different forums. I have also come to find out that they do post differently. I guess is who would you trust the most an individual who is up front or one that goes through life with various alliases. In the beginning of the internet, anonymity was important because the safe guards (adequate) were not in place to protect individual privacy.
A pseudonym can be tarnished and life goes on, when your own name is tarnished, regardless of the reasons, it is IMO very difficult to re-establish ones credibility.
Edit: "I have also come to find out that they do post differently" not meaning the tone or exchanges but the information provided is differs from one post to the next.
Last edited:
But as Andy said: Heck...you don't even know if my real name is andy OR graham.If you had their real name.....what would you do?Look up their address and reprimand them by phone call?Slash their tires?Never speak to them again?It's a non issue.
Shall we request a copy of their DL?
Signed letters from neighbors?
Mom
Rick Moquin
Omono
Valid point Irene, but moot IMO, let me explain. Any serious individual with good intentions does not need the umbrella of anonymity. Therefore, he/she should be given the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. If the individual is serious, he is basing his credentials for the future, his reputation grows as his trees and collection. There is no reason to hide... or provide false information. Just my .02
Chris Johnston
Omono
I am as tired as anyone of all this crap. I have changed my attitude and tone over the last few months for a lot of reasons, and the same old same old keeps coming up. Now Dale blames me as much as anyone and I guess that's okay.
But screen names have been around as long as the internet. Everyone knows who I am where I use bonsaikc. Been using it since I got my first computer, because it was less confusing than bonsaiguyofkc. My wife once sent a valentine greeting to bonsaiguy@aol.com. I am sure Guy Guidry was confused. We never heard back from him.
So I do not believe that my screen name is a smoke screen, and it has had nothhing to do with the way I post. The difficulty with online forums is the same as road rage. There will be those few who feel insulated by their thousands of pounds of steel, or their hundreds of miles of distance, and will feel that it's okay to be their deepest inner selves, saying and doing things that would earn them a punch in the nose in the politest society.
That's where an administrator needs to rule with an iron fist.
But it might not be needed if every poster were required to be held to the same standard. No one making excuses for another's insults, no one digging another for what they give their buddy a pass on. Everyone needs to understand that if, for example, I make a post slamming those who collect trees from the wild, I can expect someone to post my own yamadori and ask about them.
Attacks are attacks and should not be tolerated. One warning, then a ban.
But screen names have been around as long as the internet. Everyone knows who I am where I use bonsaikc. Been using it since I got my first computer, because it was less confusing than bonsaiguyofkc. My wife once sent a valentine greeting to bonsaiguy@aol.com. I am sure Guy Guidry was confused. We never heard back from him.
So I do not believe that my screen name is a smoke screen, and it has had nothhing to do with the way I post. The difficulty with online forums is the same as road rage. There will be those few who feel insulated by their thousands of pounds of steel, or their hundreds of miles of distance, and will feel that it's okay to be their deepest inner selves, saying and doing things that would earn them a punch in the nose in the politest society.
That's where an administrator needs to rule with an iron fist.
But it might not be needed if every poster were required to be held to the same standard. No one making excuses for another's insults, no one digging another for what they give their buddy a pass on. Everyone needs to understand that if, for example, I make a post slamming those who collect trees from the wild, I can expect someone to post my own yamadori and ask about them.
Attacks are attacks and should not be tolerated. One warning, then a ban.
Rick Moquin
Omono
... yes Chris and kudos are extended for your valliant effort. There is no doubt that even under the cover of a pseudonym some folks are honest and forthright. I always knew who BonsaiKC was and who that individual is, so that is not the problem. We all know where lies the problem.
Is it a solution? I don't think it will solve the problem but it is probably a step in the right direction. When this was discussed in the past, I would be curious to know the reasons why some members were so offended and even threatened to leave the site if such a mandate were to be adopted.
Is it a solution? I don't think it will solve the problem but it is probably a step in the right direction. When this was discussed in the past, I would be curious to know the reasons why some members were so offended and even threatened to leave the site if such a mandate were to be adopted.
Dale Cochoy
Shohin
I'm still watching my thread until no one posts to it.
Chris, yes, I named you as one of the major offenders. Why? Well posting a thread of any type to do research, ask a question , whatever, isn't the problem. The problem lies when that simple thread of any type becomes a battleground! If every third-ish post of yours is the next whack at someone, yes, you too are now part of the problem. You can't say "I'm trying to clean it up" then get in a fight. As I told you personally in chat, and in my post here in my thread...some of you guys just have to learn to "let the dog bark at your moon" and shut up!
Attilla,
"I don't claim to be "different" from any of you, but I just couldn't get myself to become upset or even disappointed about a forum. No matter what happens or what is being said here, it has nothing to do with real life. Absolutely nothing. So, how can you get disappointed or upset about an imaginary world?"
I disagree with this myself. Bonsai has been a MAJOR part of my life for 29 years. I hate to see the art abused. It's not imaginary to me...it is real life.
Dale
Chris Johnston
Omono
Dale, sorry you feel that way. But a level playing field must be a level playing field. If one person obfuscates or otherwise dodges the question, it's fair to ask them to be as clear as everyone else who posted. If everyone else on the thread posts with goodwill and is honest about their opinions, shouldn't that be required of Will, too?
Likewise, if a person posts a thread designed to get someone to bring up their trees in a derogatory manner, it's a shame that they might get so bent when it happens.
Will and I had been having actual conversation about bonsai, believe it or not.
Likewise, if a person posts a thread designed to get someone to bring up their trees in a derogatory manner, it's a shame that they might get so bent when it happens.
Will and I had been having actual conversation about bonsai, believe it or not.
Dale, can you define for me what your interpretation means to you on this statement?
Mom
Attila Soos
Omono
Dale,
Here is why I conclude that a forum is not equal with real life: every time I've met someone from a forum in person, I was pleasantly surprised by how different they were from what I expected.
In some cases, the difference was so drastic that I just can't give credence to the image that a Forum gives you of a person anymore.
(most) People know how to behave and interact in a social setting. It's part of being a social animal. On the Internet, the biological factors regulating our behaviour don't always apply, so we are not really ourselves as we are in real life. I've seen proof of this over and over again.
Edit.. just think about this: body language in human communication takes precedence over the verbal one. With women, it is even more critical. Since this is missing on the internet, over 50% of our communication is lost. How can then we assume that we see the whole picture?
Last edited:
Chris Johnston
Omono
It's worse than that, Attila. I have read that 93% of our communication is body language and tone of voice. That's why precision is so essential in our written communication. For example, in "just started these 2" in the Junipers forum, read this post and following.
Dale Cochoy
Shohin
OK, see guys, this is how it works.
You let someone else have the last word....
then ,
YOU SHUT UP!
Dale.....out!
You let someone else have the last word....
then ,
YOU SHUT UP!
Dale.....out!
Anonymous User
Banned
Since my name was brought up....
I have been following this thread and have no intention of actively participanting in a forum where the agenda is anything but serious bonsai, not attacks, not new smilies, not jokes, not happy birthday threads, I don't go to forums to socialize, I do that when I am not on-line studying bonsai.
I am also very tired of being on the defensive all the time. In fact I once challenged Chris to find one single post where I incited an arguement, after some time he stated on his blog that I go to great lengths not to incite....well here you go Chris, mark this first down.....
Chris, some have praised you for being so passive over the last two weeks, your usual snide remarks have ceased, but not stopped. Your posts above suggest you are somehow innocent of the latest fray, I disagree, but let us not forget that your history of attacking me, blindsiding me, and generally following me around with the sole intent to defame, attack, and incite heated debate is not forgotten by anyone. Once, over a year ago, when you had just recently been pounded in a debate with me, you ran a background check on me and found a criminal offense I had over 10 years before and then plastered it all over the internet (of course assuming the worst and without knowing one single detail)....not that it had a damn thing to do with bonsai, just one of many such actions by you in a long and documented history of you resorting to any means to beat me down. It hasn't worked, it hasn't hurt me, it hasn't slowed me down in the least, and I am still going strong. Whatever you're trying to accomplish with actions such as these isn't working, are you trying to feel better about yourself, are you trying to prove you're better, are you just madly in love with me and are angry because I return the affections? I bet you don't even know.
I am a beginner who doesn't have a single tree over three years in development, you on the other hand, have 10 years or more into the art and have spent years studying with one of the greatest masters of our time. As a result, you have 1 mediocure bonsai with exposed roots, so drop the "holier than thou" attitude and realize you are as much as a student here as anyone else, once you admit this and stop trying to be the master, your own bonsai will improve. Stop tossing his name around like it automatically makes you special, what you create from what he has taught you will make you special. As of right now, you are no more talented than I am as far as creating artistic bonsai goes.....
You are also as much to blame for the heated discussions here as myself or anyone else, need we pull up past threads, need we remind you of all the ones that were deleted by admin, no one else has forgotten Chris, this innocent act in your posts is just laughable.
I have compared you in the past to a deranged fan, a cyber-stalker, and I have said on many occassions that you have a very unhealthy fixtation on me, seek help. Even after I leave this forum, you can't help but to continue talking about me, do you dream of me a night as well? Let it go Chris, you are not fooling anyone, the insane attraction you have to me is obvious and is talked about in private often.
Once I was banned from BT, you continued on and on, bashing me,my articles, my trees, everything while knowing fullwell I couldn't respond or defend myself. These actions led me to call you a corward then, please let it go, I am done here, it's all yours...or will you just eave now also since I am no longer here?
You keep saying you want to help this forum, that you want to discuss bonsai...well then shut up and just do it, it is really that simple, unless of course you really do have an unhealthy fixtation on me. In which case, as you and Dale mentioned, sooner or later someone will get knocked on their ass. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
Now, back to actually doing bonsai, or talking about it, or viewing it, or writing about it, or reading about it, hell anything but this crap. Fortunately, I have other bonsai related talents that add more to the community than my trees ever will, thank God.
(Thanks for all the encouraging pm's guys, I appreciate them all.)
Will
Last edited:
Since my name was brought up....
I have been following this thread and have no intention of actively participanting in a forum where the agenda is anything but serious bonsai, not attacks, not new smilies, not jokes, not happy birthday threads, I don't go to forums to socialize, I do that when I am not on-line studying bonsai.
I am also very tired of being on the defensive all the time. In fact I once challenged Chris to find one single post where I incited an arguement, after some time he stated on his blog that I go to great lengths not to incite....well here you go Chris, mark this first down.....
Chris, some have praised you for being so passive over the last two weeks, your usual snide remarks have ceased, but not stopped. Your posts above suggest you are somehow innocent of the latest fray, I disagree, but let us not forget that your history of attacking me, blindsiding me, and generally following me around with the sole intent to defame, attack, and incite heated debate is not forgotten by anyone. Once, over a year ago, when you had just recently been pounded in a debate with me, you ran a background check on me and found a criminal offense I had over 10 years before and then plastered it all over the internet (of course assuming the worst and without knowing one single detail)....not that it had a damn thing to do with bonsai, just one of many such actions by you in a long and documented history of you resorting to any means to beat me down. It hasn't worked, it hasn't hurt me, it hasn't slowed me down in the least, and I am still going strong. Whatever you're trying to accomplish with actions such as these isn't working, are you trying to feel better about yourself, are you trying to prove you're better, are you just madly in love with me and are angry because I return the affections? I bet you don't even know.
I am a beginner who doesn't have a single tree over three years in development, you on the other hand, have 10 years or more into the art and have spent years studying with one of the greatest masters of our time. As a result, you have 1 mediocure bonsai with exposed roots, so drop the "holier than thou" attitude and realize you are as much as a student here as anyone else, once you admit this and stop trying to be the master, your own bonsai will improve. Stop tossing his name around like it automatically makes you special, what you create from what he has taught you will make you special. As of right now, you are no more talented than I am as far as creating artistic bonsai goes.....
You are also as much to blame for the heated discussions here as myself or anyone else, need we pull up past threads, need we remind you of all the ones that were deleted by admin, no one else has forgotten Chris, this innocent act in your posts is just laughable.
I have compared you in the past to a deranged fan, a cyber-stalker, and I have said on many occassions that you have a very unhealthy fixtation on me, seek help. Even after I leave this forum, you can't help but to continue talking about me, do you dream of me a night as well? Let it go Chris, you are not fooling anyone, the insane attraction you have to me is obvious and is talked about in private often.
You keep saying you want to help this forum, that you want to discuss bonsai...well then shut up and just do it, it is really that simple, unless of course you really do have an unhealthy fixtation on me. In which case, as you and Dale mentioned, sooner or later someone will get knocked on their ass. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
Now, back to actually doing bonsai, or talking about it, or viewing it, or writing about it, or reading about it, hell anything but this crap. Fortunately, I have other bonsai related talents that add more to the community than my trees ever will, thank God.
(Thanks for all the encouraging pm's guys, I appreciate them all.)
Will
And so it goes onto another day.....
People change Will.
And since you brought my Boss (God) into the post I will attempt to steer this post and all other posting towards a more Positive postings by all.
Will you are not and have never been a victim but yet you attempt to pull that Mantle onto your shoulders and act like a wounded person.
You by your innuendos and tone of posting are always seeking to be praised.
Have ya ever thought to be just yourself?
If God can forgive and move on cannot you do the same?
Myself I try to never judge a person no matter what is dealt. I believe that the person before me is there for a reason or purpose and that I should use the tools that God gave me to figure out the reason.
I do not target a person, I target the behavior.
Mom
(Minister on Monitor)
Anonymous User
Banned
Irene,
Since you brought me up...
You are not and never have been a moderator here.
You are not my mother.
You are the first to jump in to any heated debate and put in your own opinion while you chastise those that do the same. This on throws gas on the fire and does nothing to put it out. You hide behind this "mom" thing you have and try and sweet talk while you interject your own person beliefs while bumping the very threads that should die back to the top.
You claim you never judge a person and yet your statements above all all judgemental.
Cut the crap, you know nothing about me. Forgive and forget? would you like me to list the number of times I have given Chris the benefit of the doubt and tried to put it all behind? The last time I did so is when I agreed to let him become a editor at KoB....don't tell me what I don't do, you have no idea what you are talking about.
If I am indeed the problem, just stop calling and I'll stop coming.
And for God's sake, learn how to use the quote feature.
Will
