An apple (tree design) for your thoughts

[RosePastry]

A penny for your design thoughts anyone.

My mom has donated huge fruit trees to me. As long as I make them giant bonsai I have free reign to do whatever.

This apple has decided it wants to live and grow up to be a bonsai. The green and white tag was buried with it from bur-something but it was two messed up to identify any information other than the fact that it is fruiting and likes full sun.

It was ground grown for years as part of my mothers fruit tree collection with a tractor essentially root pruning it until it rolled out of the soil a season or so ago (my gramps is starting to get dimensia or just doesn't want to remember what "do not" means). I usually deal with pines so I let it rest with my collected evergreens in the same manner I collect them.

Fertilizing with organic liquid/Watering when the soils is dry and fine misting (with added systemic and chemical fertilizer) every 4ish hours for 3 months before dampening off for rainy season.

It has started to explode with back budding everywhere and the box is now really heavy with a brick and the shade house for size. I have not repotted it or edited it in any way since collection.



Picture of a crappy old inspirational image I had from my nokia phone forever ago. I think the branching could match pretty well.... If you don't look to close.

 

[nuttiest]

I wouldn't, with that trunk it will just look planted sideways forever and you will struggle to make branching look natural. Why don't you want it upright?

 

[rockm]

I'd agree. It will look like the tree is just unstable and slopped to the side. You can't change the trunk angle at this point, unless you're willing to sacrifice all the upper branching in favor of that first branch. Chopping it down there would shorten that long reach of straight trunk to a shorter length that would be friendlier to a slanted style (change of direction) trunk.

If this were mine, I'd push the trunk up vertically and work with some of that existing branching instead of trying to force a pre-conceived idea on a trunk that doesn't (and won't) want to conform to that idea.

 

[RosePastry]

I wouldn't, with that trunk it will just look planted sideways forever and you will struggle to make branching look natural. Why don't you want it upright?

I have nothing against an upright. I've just been looking at it for days now and I can't remember how I started.

I'd agree. It will look like the tree is just unstable and slopped to the side. You can't change the trunk angle at this point, unless you're willing to sacrifice all the upper branching in favor of that first branch. Chopping it down there would shorten that long reach of straight trunk to a shorter length that would be friendlier to a slanted style (change of direction) trunk.

If this were mine, I'd push the trunk up vertically and work with some of that existing branching instead of trying to force a pre-conceived idea on a trunk that doesn't (and won't) want to conform to that idea.

I sense my daring guess is not getting many fans though. I give.

 

[RosePastry]

Straight up view now.

 

[FreshAirSunshine]

What do you get if you cut it at the first large branch and try to style either half? To me it seems that it’s just too thick to keep as a branch, so it’s turn it into the new trunk and use the bend, or remove it and go straight up. I personally think the bend might be cool, but would want to know what branches that branch has on it

 

[Eckhoffw]

I’d have to agree with @FreshAirSunshine on this. Still jade a rather straight section low though.

 

[Eckhoffw]

Maybe tilt it even more.

 

[FreshAirSunshine]

Alternatively….if you are interested in possible air layering I may have found your tree:

 

[FreshAirSunshine]

Or a literati somewhere in there perhaps. Maybe. The bend is a bit too aggressive but maybe it can be softened. The end of that branch though is the nicest part of the tree IMO

 

[Shibui]

It is all very well to tilt trunks one way or another but any change of trunk angle requires changes to surface roots. That's the spot to start. Check to see which side has strong roots. You can obviously remove higher roots to facilitate tilting the trunk but that really requires some replacement roots below.

If the roots allow the trunk tilt I think the original strong lean looks viable but not for an upright tree like the Root over rock illustrated. More of a semi cascade, strong leaning or windswept. As @rockm pointed out that would probably require removing most of what's above that strong branch. The good thing is it is an apple and will almost certainly give lots of new shoot when chopped back anywhere so given a bit of time could be almost anything.

Just a word of caution. Some apples are grafted onto dwarfing rootstocks. Essentially these dwarfing rootstocks are cultivars with very weak roots. The tree has not grown as much as I would expect of an apple tree in ground and the fact that it was easily(?) knocked over could mean this one is such a dwarf. Dwarf often sounds ideal for bonsai but less vigorous roots could cause problems when trying to develop nebari and may give a weaker bonsai.

 

[AJL]

If you examine the tree base you should be able to see if there is a graft union.
If there is you could ground layer it at a suitable point above the graft union which would allow the scion wood to root and hopefully form a stronger root system with better nebari.

 

[RosePastry]

Unfortunately I dont have pictures from the pot up. From what I remember the roots were in a compacted pyramid shifted to the right with the point downwards.

It is all very well to tilt trunks one way or another but any change of trunk angle requires changes to surface roots. That's the spot to start. Check to see which side has strong roots. You can obviously remove higher roots to facilitate tilting the trunk but that really requires some replacement roots below.

If the roots allow the trunk tilt I think the original strong lean looks viable but not for an upright tree like the Root over rock illustrated. More of a semi cascade, strong leaning or windswept. As @rockm pointed out that would probably require removing most of what's above that strong branch. The good thing is it is an apple and will almost certainly give lots of new shoot when chopped back anywhere so given a bit of time could be almost anything.

Just a word of caution. Some apples are grafted onto dwarfing rootstocks. Essentially these dwarfing rootstocks are cultivars with very weak roots. The tree has not grown as much as I would expect of an apple tree in ground and the fact that it was easily(?) knocked over could mean this one is such a dwarf. Dwarf often sounds ideal for bonsai but less vigorous roots could cause problems when trying to develop nebari and may give a weaker bonsai.

If there was a graft union it is long gone or fused to the point I can't identify it but I will take some pictures and see.

If you examine the tree base you should be able to see if there is a graft union...

I would like to try either the formal or semi cascade as I don't have very many of those in my collection. Which would be a good display for flowers?

 

[RosePastry]

Thanks to everyone for having fun with me. I am really appreciating the constructive criticism.

I poked around and found a lower hollow when I went digging and it works visually with the upper one. Roots are growing higher on the opposing side and gripping beautifully just behind the white tag. They're also coming from just under the hollow.

Other than that I don't see a graft point just the younger bark? But double check me.

 

[Eckhoffw]

If that’s grafted, it a darn good one!

 

[Shibui]

Grafts often merge and to all intents and purposes disappear visually. Only occasional grafts grow out ugly but those few give it a bad name for bonsai. The majority simply disappear after 3 or 4 years so just because we can't see it does not mean it is not there.
I assume the tree was originally purchased for growing fruit? Close to 100 % of commercial propagated fruit trees are grafted so chances are this is too. Note it is not the visual qualities I pointed out earlier. Apples in particular have a whole range of different root stocks that can confer disease resistance and/or growth characteristics on the tree. It's the growth potential I am interested in.
Your mum may recall the origins of this particular tree - whether she grew it or bought it from a supplier.

 

[RosePastry]

That is interesting and explains why certain older bonsaist arent as hesitant to graft as I thought they would be. I will have to sharpen my grafting knowledge.

Grafts often merge and to all intents and purposes disappear visually. Only occasional grafts grow out ugly but those few give it a bad name for bonsai. The majority simply disappear after 3 or 4 years so just because we can't see it does not mean it is not there.
I assume the tree was originally purchased for growing fruit? Close to 100 % of commercial propagated fruit trees are grafted so chances are this is too. Note it is not the visual qualities I pointed out earlier. Apples in particular have a whole range of different root stocks that can confer disease resistance and/or growth characteristics on the tree. It's the growth potential I am interested in.
Your mum may recall the origins of this particular tree - whether she grew it or bought it from a supplier.

I do have a second tree that I believe would be from the same place. It has better roots, is 12 feet tall, and fruits every other year so I believe this tree was hindered by the amount of root abuse it has been dealing with.

No exaggeration it was tractored so close at the corner the branches refused to grow on one side.

I did feel a lot more roots when I went poking around than when I first potted it. Would there be some way to gauge growth potential?

Other than counting the leaves per branch or the speed it calluses over I don't have any idea.

 

[Shibui]

Would there be some way to gauge growth potential?

Not that I know of. Some root stocks have slightly different leaves and experts may be able to tell the difference but no leaves on those one and neither of us would be considered root stock experts anyway. I have noticed that some of the dwarfing roots stocks don't develop thick roots but that's the only thing I can suggest. If this one has plenty of good, strong roots it should be OK and you are correct that poor growth can be caused by any number of things including grandpas and tractors.

 

[RosePastry]

I will try and leave repotting until it absolutely needs it and feed it like crazy and see what I get. It didn't fit back in the shade house and the top got left outside so I'm in this for the long haul now.