Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I have to admit that is a possibility. It will take time and constant attention to iron out the difficulties with the branches at the top.
Here is my ticket for the train!
It's a very little pine (4" pot) that I bought last week-end at the Hidden Garden nursery.
Although I didn't have look at Vance Wood summary of threads on the subject at this time (thanks Lazyligthlingy for doing that) I chose it the right way: hard to see on the pictures because it is really small and kind of bushy but it has a nice single trunk. At least I find it nice. At least it has a trunk and not a cluster of branches (I saw some Mugo at Home depot today, now I understand what it means to say that they 'form knuckles all over the place')
I know - I assume at least - that my mugo is very small and will certainly never reach a size bigger than Shohin. Fine by me, I like it a lot like that and my wife find it cute.
So now that I checked all Vance Wood posts on the topic my plan of action regarding my little guy is that in July I will pot it in a colander. For that I'll gently remove the soil from the top and a little bit from the root mass and then cut the root ball at the black line. Until this time I'll have had time to understand what Vance means with the 'slice it like a pie' part of the process and I'll do it.
I plan to pot my little tree in the mix I use for all my trees in training, i.e. the mix recommend by Brent Watson: 8 parts perlite/8 part pine bark/1 part sphagnum moss + osmocote 14/14/14. Is that correct?
Once the tree will be potted I will do the first branch pruning and may be a little wiring (little for sure, the tree is little)
That's my plan, what do you guys think about?
It's a very little pine (4" pot) that I bought last week-end at the Hidden Garden nursery.
Although I didn't have look at Vance Wood summary of threads on the subject at this time (thanks Lazyligthlingy for doing that) I chose it the right way: hard to see on the pictures because it is really small and kind of bushy but it has a nice single trunk. At least I find it nice. At least it has a trunk and not a cluster of branches (I saw some Mugo at Home depot today, now I understand what it means to say that they 'form knuckles all over the place')
I know - I assume at least - that my mugo is very small and will certainly never reach a size bigger than Shohin. Fine by me, I like it a lot like that and my wife find it cute.
So now that I checked all Vance Wood posts on the topic my plan of action regarding my little guy is that in July I will pot it in a colander. For that I'll gently remove the soil from the top and a little bit from the root mass and then cut the root ball at the black line. Until this time I'll have had time to understand what Vance means with the 'slice it like a pie' part of the process and I'll do it.
I plan to pot my little tree in the mix I use for all my trees in training, i.e. the mix recommend by Brent Watson: 8 parts perlite/8 part pine bark/1 part sphagnum moss + osmocote 14/14/14. Is that correct?
Once the tree will be potted I will do the first branch pruning and may be a little wiring (little for sure, the tree is little)
That's my plan, what do you guys think about?
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I have become very fond of these Little Mugos of late. I know the best ones are made from 3 gallon or larger stock but the little ones have a charm of their own if you take the time to cut them back carefully.
brewmeister83
Chumono
Some of them are going to be grown out for a few years, but there's one of the pumilio that naturally has denser needles about 1/2 the length of the others - that one's becoming a shohin I think...
clevetromba
Shohin
I've actually had this tree for about three years now, and have been cutting new shoots back every year, and still no back budding on the long bare branches. What's the trick?
clevetromba
Shohin
Thanks for that perspective Vance, I certainly hadn't thought of that kind of drastic reduction. Do you think I would be more likely to get back budding on the long bare branch on the left if I were to do as you suggest?
clevetromba
Shohin
Paradox, thanks for weighing in, I appreciate hearing competing views. The branches you suggest removing aren't actually as big as they appear in the photo due to the perspective of the shot. Here are a few different angles:
I feel like I'd like to work with the existing branches for a while. If I remove the two lower left, there will be a long bare trunk. What do you think about jinning them?
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
You still have the shorter branch on the right which I would keep.
The problem is that all 3 come off the trunk at the same spot. Even leaving them as jin would create a "T" bar look which you dont want. I would definitely not jin both of the left ones. In your first post of this tree, the picture with your finger is about where I see the front because the trunk is viewable and it shows off those awesome roots. The first picture in the above post is the back of the tree to me.
You dont want any branch or jin directly coming out at the viewer. A jin at the back of the tree is kind of pointless.
In any case whether you want to leave them as jin or eventually elimnate them, you should cut them leaving a stump to avoid associated trunk/root death. You would leave those stubs for at least a year anyway. So cut them leaving 2 inches which will also give you an idea how it would look. Study the tree with it like that and decide later if you want to save one for a jin.
The problem is that all 3 come off the trunk at the same spot. Even leaving them as jin would create a "T" bar look which you dont want. I would definitely not jin both of the left ones. In your first post of this tree, the picture with your finger is about where I see the front because the trunk is viewable and it shows off those awesome roots. The first picture in the above post is the back of the tree to me.
You dont want any branch or jin directly coming out at the viewer. A jin at the back of the tree is kind of pointless.
In any case whether you want to leave them as jin or eventually elimnate them, you should cut them leaving a stump to avoid associated trunk/root death. You would leave those stubs for at least a year anyway. So cut them leaving 2 inches which will also give you an idea how it would look. Study the tree with it like that and decide later if you want to save one for a jin.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I hold to my position not to be stubborn but because out of years of doing these guys I think I know where this tree is going. By doing what I suggest you are getting rid of a lot of knuckle issues, that will have to be dealt with before you have a good tree, you will creat a taper and in short making a really good bonsai a lot sooner than you would do going the other way. I don't mean to disagree with Sandy but if you look again I think you will see what I am talking about. As to the back budding: That is a difficult question to answer at this point. Right now we are only concerned about not killing the tree. This is the first step in the kind of reduction I think is going to be necessary to make a bonsai of this tree. In essence you will growint this tree out of one branch left from all those that came off the knuckle. This is not the normal was of thing but it is a common way with Mugos. The problem is you have to do this over time. Taking either part off the tree constitutes a significant reduction and is marginally risky. Of course options right now are artistic and not so much cultivational.
Lazylightningny
Masterpiece
Vance, I removed these two branches on May 21. There are three branches left. Can I safely remove one more branch this summer?
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
In this case yes.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
I dont think we a necessarily disagreeing Vance. I also think he needs to remove more of those branches coming off that lower knuckle.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
That got me too; we are talking about two different trees. The tree we disagreed on was Clevetromba tree, belonged to lazylightinguy was the tree I was responding to.
bonsaiBlake
Chumono
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
You have two levels of branching I would be concerned with, from the ground up the first set of branch are a possibility that you could cut back to. The next set of branches above that is the other. Both are viable but neither will make for a good bonsai short of about five years. You will have to allow for back budding and styling. If it was mine I would go for the high cut for now and see what happens. As sometimes happens with me I will make a decision like this and in a couple of years decide to change it. The tree grows and you grow, and change with the tree and you see new and sometimes better things.
clevetromba
Shohin
I agree with you there, no doubt about it.
I'll have to do some photoshopping of different options, I've had one image in my mind for so long that it's hard to let go of
clevetromba
Shohin
I will certainly give this some thought and study. The branch you suggest leaving is my least favorite one on the tree. I need to mull this over for a while.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
I can't get over the feeling that we are talking about two different trees. Clevetromba's tree is the small Mugo. Bonsai Blake is the larger tree with the open branching. My assessment for both trees is to cut because this is what I would do, the difference is in where. Clevetromba; it is your tree you can do what you want, please don't do anything because I said so and Blake that goes for you as well. All I have done is offer suggestions based on two-dimensional photographs. Neither photo is ideal.
clevetromba
Shohin
Vance,
I really do appreciate your advice! I hope you don't misinterpret my hesitation with lack of respect for your knowledge and experience. I never would have thought such a drastic cut back, so you have expanded my range of possibilities! Thank you so much.
Vance Wood
Lord Mugo
Sometimes less is more when it comes to bonsai. One of the most common beginner/intermediate/ mistakes made in bonsai is not daring to look ahead and find the tree. Usually making or trying to make a bonsai out of a tree just the way it has come out of the pot with every branch intact leads to a crumby tree. Look on the INTERNET and search for Mugo Pine Bonsai. You will get a bunch of thing including a bunch of Videos. Watch some of them. It is unbelievable how few of these people demonstrate any kind of knowledge of the tree and what to do with it. Others will finish with a tree that looks like a bonsai only as much as it is in a bonsai pot. I don't mean to demean anyone's work but the battle I have been fighting over the Mugo has had a tendency to make me a little critical of people who approach the tree in a flippant manner. They attempt to pass off their particular brand of incompetence or exxercise in paucity as good bonsai practice. Of course the question that is begged at this point is what makes me think I can do better? Good question,------ you decide.
