Air layered my mallsai

[ConorDash]

Great job! This is the time to be pruning those elms. Don't make the two elm pruning mistakes:

(1) If you want the branch to be thicker, don't touch it. Particularly if you are trying to get thickness into an apex (for example). If the branch is shading out the interior of the tree, remove foliage from the interior of the branch (leaf strip it) while leaving all the leaves on the end of the branch. Do NOT shorten the branch or cut the apical meristem (the end tip of the branch).
(2) If the branch is thick enough, cut back to two leaves. Not three, or four, or six. Cut all the way back.

This is the time to completely remove the branches you don't want. Given the time of year, don't forget to use waterproof cut paste on the wounds.

If people make any mistake, they tend to overprune the long growth they are supposed to keep, and underprune the tight ramification growth that they need to keep tight and ramified.

Thank you for the tips. I will certainly remember that, very useful. Similar advice given by Smoke, once upon a time.
However, I think with these 2 trees, there's not much to keep on them. I feel like the best thing to do would be to remove the majority of them and let them regrow and directional prune over next few years to rebuild a branch structure.
Looking at the pics (although difficult to see), do you think there is much to keep?
Although saying that... This doesn't look so bad. There is balance, the lower branch is thickest, next one slightly thinner so it has taper...

 

[ConorDash]

Fully integrated into the....
"Don't ask newb questions" comment!

Nice!

Sorce

Lol, Ok I think you mean YES GOOD PLAN. You think too much of me, I like the confirmation, i don't trust my own ideas. Yet.

 

[sorce]

You think too much of me, I like the confirmation, i don't trust my own ideas. Yet.

I find it way more valuable to you..
To assure you of your path.

You still got a lot of mistakes to make.

No problemo!

Sorce

 

[ConorDash]

I find it way more valuable to you..
To assure you of your path.

You still got a lot of mistakes to make.

No problemo!

Sorce

Yeah I'm happy to come to the plan then see what people think. Just gotta get that experience..

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Looking at your two branches you have highlighted in green.... this is an illustration of my earlier comment:

Either remove them completely (i.e. cut them flush to the trunk, and seal the wounds. Or leave them untouched.

Neither of those green branches will be useful in the final design of your tree, so either let them grow as sacrifice branches (to be removed later) or remove them now. But don't cut them partially back, in which case you are not getting the thickening benefit of a sacrifice branch, nor are you getting the finer branching you are going to want in your final design.

 

[M. Frary]

Conor.
Everything Mr. Nut says is what I would tell you.

 

[ConorDash]

Looking at your two branches you have highlighted in green.... this is an illustration of my earlier comment:

Either remove them completely (i.e. cut them flush to the trunk, and seal the wounds. Or leave them untouched.

Neither of those green branches will be useful in the final design of your tree, so either let them grow as sacrifice branches (to be removed later) or remove them now. But don't cut them partially back, in which case you are not getting the thickening benefit of a sacrifice branch, nor are you getting the finer branching you are going to want in your final design.

Ah, of course I just realised I cut them half way which you specifically said not to... lol, sorry, silly moment.

Can I ask why not in the final design? Are they not in good positions and not in proportion? (Not to say that's all that matters of course).
I think I should know the answer to this question and I look silly asking but I can't let that stop me from asking or else I won't learn.
I'd rather cut flush, start that healing process. In which case I can't imagine many branchs will be left on this tree.
Surely there's a limit on pruning too much....

Thanks @M. Frary , I mean, if I knew Mr Nut was going to reply, I wouldn't have needed to ask you at all! .

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Can I ask why not in the final design? Are they not in good positions and not in proportion? (Not to say that's all that matters of course).
I think I should know the answer to this question and I look silly asking but I can't let that stop me from asking or else I won't learn.
I'd rather cut flush, start that healing process. In which case I can't imagine many branchs will be left on this tree.
Surely there's a limit on pruning too much...

Yes there is a limit on pruning too much, but you have not reached it

With Chinese elm, if the tree is strong, you can remove all branches and leave only a trunk... and in 6 weeks the trunk will be covered with new buds / new branches. Here are a couple of examples of elms that are still in early development that I have just removed a couple of branches on:





You can see that where the branches were removed, there are numerous buds bursting forth to chose from for a new branch at the location... perhaps one that has a slightly better location or a better angle.

You asked about why those two branches were inconsistent with the design of a tree. When you look at an old elm in nature, it has a very specific (and famous) growth habit. It can almost be thought of as the archetype of the bonsai "broom" style. The trunk goes up, and then splits into numerous secondary and tertiary trunks, spreading into a massive canopy. It does not have low, spreading branches like an oak. All of the branches are significantly thinner than the trunk. It is this combination of spreading growth and ratio of trunk to branches that makes an elm bonsai look like a real tree in miniature.



I am not trying to suggest that you can't style elms in a myriad of other styles, or try to make them look different from the tree photoed here. I am just pointing out that it is always best to try to make your bonsai look like a tree, and not try to style it to look like a bonsai The two low branches on your tree are inconsistent with an old big elm, and they are far too thick for your trunk.

Elms on developed bonsai can often have this issue of branches getting slowly too thick for the design over time. Fortunately the solution is easy enough - elms backbud on old bark so strongly that you can remove even large branches without worrying about whether you have just cut a permanent hole in your design. Plenty of buds and new branches will be available shortly

 

[ConorDash]

Yes there is a limit on pruning too much, but you have not reached it

With Chinese elm, if the tree is strong, you can remove all branches and leave only a trunk... and in 6 weeks the trunk will be covered with new buds / new branches. Here are a couple of examples of elms that are still in early development that I have just removed a couple of branches on:

View attachment 148179

View attachment 148180

You can see that where the branches were removed, there are numerous buds bursting forth to chose from for a new branch at the location... perhaps one that has a slightly better location or a better angle.

You asked about why those two branches were inconsistent with the design of a tree. When you look at an old elm in nature, it has a very specific (and famous) growth habit. It can almost be thought of as the archetype of the bonsai "broom" style. The trunk goes up, and then splits into numerous secondary and tertiary trunks, spreading into a massive canopy. It does not have low, spreading branches like an oak. All of the branches are significantly thinner than the trunk. It is this combination of spreading growth and ratio of trunk to branches that makes an elm bonsai look like a real tree in miniature.

View attachment 148182

I am not trying to suggest that you can't style elms in a myriad of other styles, or try to make them look different from the tree photoed here. I am just pointing out that it is always best to try to make your bonsai look like a tree, and not try to style it to look like a bonsai The two low branches on your tree are inconsistent with an old big elm, and they are far too thick for your trunk.

Elms on developed bonsai can often have this issue of branches getting slowly too thick for the design over time. Fortunately the solution is easy enough - elms backbud on old bark so strongly that you can remove even large branches without worrying about whether you have just cut a permanent hole in your design. Plenty of buds and new branches will be available shortly

Very informative and interesting, as always.
Thank you. I can see what you mean and these branches are too thick. I think I was looking too closely at the tree, in my mind I'm zoomed in and I need to zoom out to see the tree as a bigger picture.
I do have somewhat of an image in my head of its future but it's changing frequently at the moment.

Cool, well I'm going to make those cut backs tomorrow. It'll be a much smaller tree and I'll have to try and leave some fresh new growth, I don't want to cut away everything. It is growing well but I don't trust its growing well enough to only leave a trunk. Bit of a shame, some new wound paste I ordered (which is recommended and seems better than my current) will arrive sometime this week but not tomorrow. No big deal, I'll use my normal one.

That first pic of yours, the bark on that tree is awesome old looking. The newer elms I got a few months ago have that same budding and green growth coming from the larger cuts I made (I believe you was in the thread, the Ben and Luke one, 2 Chinese elms). The one thing I can trust is how strong and hardy these trees are.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I don't want to cut away everything.

Do not be too worried with Chinese elm. It can handle it. Grow it like mad... cut it back hard. Grow it like mad... cut it back hard. And you will see good, fast results.

Do not... grow it weakly, constantly trimming, cut it back partially because you are afraid of killing it. You will get extremely slow results, if ever.

You can do this to a Chinese elm, without worries:

 

[j evans]

The only reason you can say that is that so far I haven't tried it. Then you will see what CAN happen.

 

[Chuah]

Looking at your two branches you have highlighted in green.... this is an illustration of my earlier comment:

Either remove them completely (i.e. cut them flush to the trunk, and seal the wounds. Or leave them untouched.

Neither of those green branches will be useful in the final design of your tree, so either let them grow as sacrifice branches (to be removed later) or remove them now. But don't cut them partially back, in which case you are not getting the thickening benefit of a sacrifice branch, nor are you getting the finer branching you are going final design.

Agreed. Both branches looked quite thick compared to the trunk. You can select new buds when they pop up and just let them grow without cut back for a year or two, you would get branches where you want them to be and they thicken quite fast.

 

[Chuah]

Do not be too worried with Chinese elm. It can handle it. Grow it like mad... cut it back hard. Grow it like mad... cut it back hard. And you will see good, fast results.

Do not... grow it weakly, constantly trimming, cut it back partially because you are afraid of killing it. You will get extremely slow results, if ever.

You can do this to a Chinese elm, without worries:

View attachment 148188

Beautiful cork bark elm!

 

[ConorDash]

Do not be too worried with Chinese elm. It can handle it. Grow it like mad... cut it back hard. Grow it like mad... cut it back hard. And you will see good, fast results.

Do not... grow it weakly, constantly trimming, cut it back partially because you are afraid of killing it. You will get extremely slow results, if ever.

You can do this to a Chinese elm, without worries:

View attachment 148188

Sure, ok today is doomsday for my 2 elms then lol. They have grown like mad, so it's a good time.
A year since separation, so the air layered part has had good time for recovery.

Your armless elm is making mine look bad BNut .

 

[sorce]

today is doomsday

Not that they can't take it....

But fully according to Bossnut advice...(6 weeks)
I am waiting at least another week or 2 To cut my best growing elm.

Seems early for you no?

@Bonsai Nut your Ulmlust is showing!
Love It!

Sorce

 

[ConorDash]

I thought the UK seasons moved earlier than US in any case?
Our spring and summer temps arrive earlier, and trees come out of dormancy earlier so should make the timing good?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Your armless elm is making mine look bad BNut .

It shouldn't. It is exactly the same tree as yours, just a little thicker. It is an air-layer - the top of tree that I air-layered about 8 years ago.

 

[M. Frary]

Not that they can't take it....

But fully according to Bossnut advice...(6 weeks)
I am waiting at least another week or 2 To cut my best growing elm.

Seems early for you no?

@Bonsai Nut your Ulmlust is showing!
Love It!

Sorce

Already cut a couple of mine back twice!

 

[ConorDash]

It shouldn't. It is exactly the same tree as yours, just a little thicker. It is an air-layer - the top of tree that I air-layered about 8 years ago.

Just great movement and taper in that trunk, such a good starting point. The old looking bark is awesome.
Anyways, I am a ways off yet with these trees, just wanna make sure I am taking the correct path.
Thanks for the help, will post after pics. Then youll probably tell me to go cut more off cos Ill be too soft on them.

 

[sorce]

Already cut a couple of mine back twice!

That MG. Crack!

Sorce