Advice on JM trunk chop

[Paulpash]

Will now, December 6 on mild weather 14 C with down to 7C in two weeks will be too late?

Can you post a pic of where you're going to chop? It's as much as what's around the chop site as when. We can also consider a 'half chop' approach too depending on the size.

 

[Driftwood]

Hi, I was thinking a bit high in case of die back (red line) or close to get rid of that knob (yellow).

 

[Paulpash]

Lack of side branches concerns me - can you see visible buds below the red chop lines?

The best line IMO is to tip the trunk to the right and use the left hand side branch as the next trunk section & eliminate the very straight boring middle trunk. This will give us movement and taper BUT the left hand branch (in common with the other two) don't have any side branches and the internodes are long. For us to have any chance of turning this into a bonsai it is vital we get branching to occur in the first internodes of the left and right branches and then to ensure they stay shorter by pruning. We could go risky/adventurous (?) & chop one or two above these first internodes but without 'catching' buds or branches there could be lots of dieback. Chopping to actual visible buds is safer and may promote some backbudding but not necessarily in that first internode.

If this were mine I'd do a half chop (sawing halfway through the middle trunk) from the left branch to the right and cut back all 3 trunks / branches to the first side branch or visible bud. If the tree does not throw out buds in the first internode I'd graft the next season. It could very well take several seasons & multiple cuts to chase back growth to a point where we can apply bonsai techniques if you are not comfortable grafting. This is a tough piece of stock (because of the legginess) to turn into bonsai & it could very well be a few years just trying to generate branches before we can look at training.

 

[Driftwood]

The closer buds to the cuts are in purple. A chop one node higher (3rd node) is perhaps a safer option but it takes longer cause I will have to cut back again to the first or second. I'm also considering to chope and put it on the ground next spring with tile method to help the nebari... wanted to test the autumn/winter hard prune though but I'm afraid is a bit late since in two weeks time temperatures are predicted to drop to a minimum of 4C or 39f. And yes I'm aware is a though piece of stock which could be more rewarding and I have seen smaller trunks in bonsai shops for more than 10 times the price.

 

[Paulpash]

There's no advantage to chopping now - no resources are moving through the tree so healing won't start for months. The other window for chopping to get as vigorous a response as possible is after the leaves have hardened off. It'll bleed a bit but no big deal - just make sure you seal it well. I'd also feed well as soon as it buds out. This will get it strong in preparation for chopping approx 6 weeks later when the leaves form a waxy cuticle & start to feel more 'leathery'. Good luck!

 

[just.wing.it]

@Josh88
How did the maple chop go this year?

 

[Driftwood]

thx you paulpash, it sounds a bit like Ryan Neil sort of reasoning? about sealing if I'm not wrong Walter Pall considered as old fashion and unnecessary. so late summer chop? sorry, but have you had any experience with late autumn early winter hard prune?

 

[ConorDash]

Golden rule I always went by and learnt from many is ALWAYS seal a Maple prune. Chop, major or minor pruning.. everything. Seal it.
I think they are particularly susceptible to certain deceases, V wilt etc.

 

[Paulpash]

thx you paulpash, it sounds a bit like Ryan Neil sort of reasoning? about sealing if I'm not wrong Walter Pall considered as old fashion and unnecessary. so late summer chop? sorry, but have you had any experience with late autumn early winter hard prune?

I've pruned / chopped at all times of year and I know for a fact doing it in winter is not logical - that is why I don't do it. I have grown all my stuff from scratch and I've been doing this hobby for over 20 years so yes I have experience. If you chop in early winter you expose your tree to a higher risk of infection from Pseudomonas Syringae too which, according to published research papers, is transmitted through ice crystallization. I've already given my reasons why it isn't a good idea to chop now in post #25. Why do you seem intent on chopping now? What benefits do you think there are ?

Japanese Maples are by FAR, IME, the most touchy deciduous tree for bonsai in terms of hard chops and dieback. I would do all I could, ie seal, make sure my tools are really sharp and clean and time it for the best chance of success.

 

[just.wing.it]

I've pruned / chopped at all times of year and I know for a fact doing it in winter is not logical - that is why I don't do it. I have grown all my stuff from scratch and I've been doing this hobby for over 20 years so yes I have experience. If you chop in early winter you expose your tree to a higher risk of infection from Pseudomonas Syringae too which, according to published research papers, is transmitted through ice crystallization. I've already given my reasons why it isn't a good idea to chop now in post #25. Why do you seem intent on chopping now? What benefits do you think there are ?

Japanese Maples are by FAR, IME, the most touchy deciduous tree for bonsai in terms of hard chops and dieback. I would do all I could, ie seal, make sure my tools are really sharp and clean and time it for the best chance of success.

Amen brother!

 

[Driftwood]

I've pruned / chopped at all times of year and I know for a fact doing it in winter is not logical - that is why I don't do it. I have grown all my stuff from scratch and I've been doing this hobby for over 20 years so yes I have experience. If you chop in early winter you expose your tree to a higher risk of infection from Pseudomonas Syringae too which, according to published research papers, is transmitted through ice crystallization. I've already given my reasons why it isn't a good idea to chop now in post #25. Why do you seem intent on chopping now? What benefits do you think there are ?

Japanese Maples are by FAR, IME, the most touchy deciduous tree for bonsai in terms of hard chops and dieback. I would do all I could, ie seal, make sure my tools are really sharp and clean and time it for the best chance of success.

Thank you Paul, Connor & brother justwingit.
Connor there are many blurry topics in horticulture, it seems sealers is one of those. Trying not to be controversial I'm adding a link for those who are learning to see another point of view. http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2012/04/myth-of-wound-dressing.html
Paul, again internet is full of contradictory info which makes things confusing. Some say that pruning in spring cause excessive bleeding weakening the tree.. It seems like most professional agree on a late summer to Autumn hard prune on maples which is almost a year a way, so IF can be done during dormancy 'I better wake up 'and do it now... I do appreciate your advise and experience but again it seems like you never done or see a hard prune on maple during Autumn/winter?

 

[Driftwood]

Just found a interesting discussion on this forum https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/best-time-to-chop.30891/ even Paul gave some good advice there
I wish I was in the Azores like Gustavo to do my Chopping in that beautiful place.

 

[Josh88]

@Josh88
How did the maple chop go this year?

I cut in late February with about a half inch stub beyond the highest branch to allow for dieback and used cut paste and got no bleeding at all, and repotted it onto a board to develop the nebari in mid March. It grew wonderfully this year and I really like where I think it’s headed but will take years still to develop.

 

[BobbyLane]

thx you paulpash, it sounds a bit like Ryan Neil sort of reasoning? about sealing if I'm not wrong Walter Pall considered as old fashion and unnecessary. so late summer chop? sorry, but have you had any experience with late autumn early winter hard prune?

i feel this is more in regard to every other species apart from imported maples which usually dont require extensive hard pruning

Thank you Paul, Connor & brother justwingit.
Connor there are many blurry topics in horticulture, it seems sealers is one of those. Trying not to be controversial I'm adding a link for those who are learning to see another point of view. http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2012/04/myth-of-wound-dressing.html
Paul, again internet is full of contradictory info which makes things confusing. Some say that pruning in spring cause excessive bleeding weakening the tree.. It seems like most professional agree on a late summer to Autumn hard prune on maples which is almost a year a way, so IF can be done during dormancy 'I better wake up 'and do it now... I do appreciate your advise and experience but again it seems like you never done or see a hard prune on maple during Autumn/winter?

things only become confusing because you haven't experimented for yourself yet. once you acquire a few trees, you can try these different methods and see what works for you.

 

[Paulpash]

Thank you Paul, Connor & brother justwingit.
Connor there are many blurry topics in horticulture, it seems sealers is one of those. Trying not to be controversial I'm adding a link for those who are learning to see another point of view. http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2012/04/myth-of-wound-dressing.html
Paul, again internet is full of contradictory info which makes things confusing. Some say that pruning in spring cause excessive bleeding weakening the tree.. It seems like most professional agree on a late summer to Autumn hard prune on maples which is almost a year a way, so IF can be done during dormancy 'I better wake up 'and do it now... I do appreciate your advise and experience but again it seems like you never done or see a hard prune on maple during Autumn/winter?

I'm out. Please post after you have chopped.

 

[Sifu]

thx you paulpash, it sounds a bit like Ryan Neil sort of reasoning? about sealing if I'm not wrong Walter Pall considered as old fashion and unnecessary. so late summer chop? sorry, but have you had any experience with late autumn early winter hard prune?

First define how hard would you like to go with your "hard pruning". Second, what's your climate like. Third, it looks like that Japanese maple is a very sensitive species, so you should be more careful here.
Many horticulturist prune ornamental and fruit trees during dormancy, so i don't see a reason why you shouldn't do the same (bonsai trees are still trees). Here you can find some benefits of winter pruning deciduous trees, copied from Arbor Experts (Warning: keep in mind that Japanese maple is or it could be a one big exception here!):

Benefit #1 – Makes Tree Structure More Visible
Proper pruning means making the right cuts in the right places to improve the shape, health and safety of your trees. Without leaves covering branches, it’s easier to see the structure of your trees. We can quickly tell whether or not a tree needs to be pruned and can more easily identify dead or dangerous branches that should be removed.

Benefit #2 – Stops Diseases From Spreading
Tree diseases are typically caused or spread by bacteria, fungi, parasites and insects. Unless the weather has been exceptionally warm, these disease agents are usually dead or dormant during winter months. As a result, diseases are less likely to be transmitted through tree work done in winter.

Some trees, such as elm and oak, as well as trees infected with fire blight, are best pruned in winter specifically to minimize the risk of spreading Dutch elm disease and oak wilt.

Benefit #3 – Increases Efficiency
Temperatures in the Dayton area often get cold enough in winter to freeze the ground. That means we can bring in heavy equipment without damaging your landscape, letting us work more efficiently and resulting in lower costs for you. This is especially true for large tree pruning jobs andremovals.

Benefit #4 – Causes Less Stress for Trees
A tree’s normal reaction to pruning is to stimulate new growth and to close the wound made by the pruning cut. When we prune in winter, it doesn’t cause new growth until spring, at which time the tree has access to the moisture, sunlight and nutrients it needs to support healthy growth. Plus, dormant pruning gives trees time to heal from pruning cuts before warmer weather brings out destructive insects and pathogens.

 

[Driftwood]

First define how hard would you like to go with your "hard pruning". Second, what's your climate like. Third, it looks like that Japanese maple is a very sensitive species, so you should be more careful here.
Many horticulturist prune ornamental and fruit trees during dormancy, so i don't see a reason why you shouldn't do the same (bonsai trees are still trees). Here you can find some benefits of winter pruning deciduous trees, copied from Arbor Experts (Warning: keep in mind that Japanese maple is or it could be a one big exception here!):

Benefit #1 – Makes Tree Structure More Visible
Proper pruning means making the right cuts in the right places to improve the shape, health and safety of your trees. Without leaves covering branches, it’s easier to see the structure of your trees. We can quickly tell whether or not a tree needs to be pruned and can more easily identify dead or dangerous branches that should be removed.

Benefit #2 – Stops Diseases From Spreading
Tree diseases are typically caused or spread by bacteria, fungi, parasites and insects. Unless the weather has been exceptionally warm, these disease agents are usually dead or dormant during winter months. As a result, diseases are less likely to be transmitted through tree work done in winter.

Some trees, such as elm and oak, as well as trees infected with fire blight, are best pruned in winter specifically to minimize the risk of spreading Dutch elm disease and oak wilt.

Benefit #3 – Increases Efficiency
Temperatures in the Dayton area often get cold enough in winter to freeze the ground. That means we can bring in heavy equipment without damaging your landscape, letting us work more efficiently and resulting in lower costs for you. This is especially true for large tree pruning jobs andremovals.

Benefit #4 – Causes Less Stress for Trees
A tree’s normal reaction to pruning is to stimulate new growth and to close the wound made by the pruning cut. When we prune in winter, it doesn’t cause new growth until spring, at which time the tree has access to the moisture, sunlight and nutrients it needs to support healthy growth. Plus, dormant pruning gives trees time to heal from pruning cuts before warmer weather brings out destructive insects and pathogens.

Hi, for "how hard is the prune" please see the posted pictures. The RHS advice pruning of Japanese maples in November to January...doesn't mean trunk chop though!
I'm not sure yet if gonna do this experimental cut or first put it on the ground this spring in order to thicken the trunk as others rightly pointed out. thank you everybody again specially to Paul for his patience
I will decide this weekend.

 

[Gustavo Martins]

Just found a interesting discussion on this forum https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/best-time-to-chop.30891/ even Paul gave some good advice there
I wish I was in the Azores like Gustavo to do my Chopping in that beautiful place.

Just to let you know that mine is still ok. So no problems after trunk chopping in late fall after 2 years

 

[ConorDash]

Thank you Paul, Connor & brother justwingit.
Connor there are many blurry topics in horticulture, it seems sealers is one of those. Trying not to be controversial I'm adding a link for those who are learning to see another point of view. http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2012/04/myth-of-wound-dressing.html
Paul, again internet is full of contradictory info which makes things confusing. Some say that pruning in spring cause excessive bleeding weakening the tree.. It seems like most professional agree on a late summer to Autumn hard prune on maples which is almost a year a way, so IF can be done during dormancy 'I better wake up 'and do it now... I do appreciate your advise and experience but again it seems like you never done or see a hard prune on maple during Autumn/winter?

https://bonsaibark.com/2012/04/25/cut-paste-versus-natural-healing/

Could even argue with your link. Sure, in nature trees don’t need cut paste so why would we? In nature, a guy doesn’t come along with a massive saw and cut the trunk in half at a random point in the year neither..
I’m sure there’s a rebuttal for that too.. it goes on and on, welcome to Bonsai.

We could trade links all day and neither of us would be right because there is simply no correct answer. There are too many variables, it’s impossible. At least that’s been proven over the past few decades, the fact it’s clearly not going to be answered one way or the other.

As Bobby said, experience, what works for you, your tree, climate etc etc.
I’ll continue to use sealant on my maple, every cut. And will continue to not use it on my elms unless making a large cut.

This whole forum serves as a platform for controversy. The trick is taking in both sides and using your own initiative to make the best decision. Over a number of years, those decisions turn in to experiences and with a bit of luck, experience turns to skill and good looking, healthy trees. Good luck

 

[0soyoung]

We could trade links all day and neither of us would be right because there is simply no correct answer. There are too many variables, it’s impossible. At least that’s been proven over the past few decades, the fact it’s clearly not going to be answered one way or the other.

Are you in the priesthood or an ordained minister?