Acer palmatum

[rodeolthr]

@ConorDash @ajm55555 I have many of my shohin-in-training that look like this after I did a heavy cutback of the outer leaves/branches. It happens every year, especially in my climate. We typically have cloudy and cool days, but this time of year the sun starts to peak out with full force. Those inner leaves just aren't ready for it. Pay them no mind, they usually fall off and are replaced by new, healthy, leaves

 

[Rob_phillips]

Hi Rob, its been a while since I have had you post.
Thats easy to address mate, it was repoted this Spring in to a different mix . I dont blame you for not reading back more lol, there are a lot of pages. It is now in a mostly inorganic substrate of molar clay from Kaizen bonsai, including pine bark. No cat litter but still inorganic, I'll be staying with inorganic.

And I having trouble believing frost damage, unless it manifests itself a lot different than I thought it did. This damage has only appeared on leaves after the shoot pruning, other leaves are fine + its been 1-2 months since that frost. These leaves were present at the time though. But I was VERY diligent with the maple, and still am. Strong winds, it is moved. Cold temps it is moved to a sheltered unheated protection.. Honestly, given the issues with this thing, I was on top of it.. Moving it in and out, if temps were anywhere around 2-3. I'd get out of bed at 10pm if I had a worry it would be too cold and move the thing inside.

Btw I see your name pop up on the Peter Warren streams , enjoying them?

Hi mate hope your well
yeah I have read every post on this thread and i did see you repotted the tree this year.
bit you still predominately put it into cat litter or molar clay or Diatomaceous earth or many other names for it lol im just not sold on the idea of it and its far too absorbant i could not trust it whatsoever even if the mix has a small amount of pine bark.
If your going to use it I would add it to a mix like the so called boone mix and some pine bark.
Or if you use kaizen maybe buy on of his mixes like no 1 or 2 for maples I have used it it has alot of different substrates in it and its tried and trusted here in the UK
I spoke to Harry Harrington about it and he said that he doesn't use it anymore and wasn't sure on it as a one substrate mix or even that with just pinebark .
And if you follow Peter Warren on YouTube too he has also said his price found on that substrate too.

Yeah i follow Peter. his streams are perfect uk based knowledge
I am also a member of his discord doners group too.
he is so knowledgeable and so approachable too.
why not join his discord group by donating to him and he will email you and you can post pics directly to him and trust me he is one on the best minds in European bonsai and will have a definitive answer for you especially on maples he it fantastic with the species.
Plus he lives in London maybe go pay him a visit one day when I had a one on one zoom session with him the other week he said he would be up visitors again after lockdown

 

[Rob_phillips]

Alright good to know on the soil front. Bear in mind we are talking about 5-10% normal soil, mixed in with substrate. Seen it used in in a few good peoples mix, plus as I say, used with Kaizen but I understand your concerns.

Ok good point. I had thought my maple was strong and recovered from previous years. Those big sacrifice branches had built up a good amount of vigour and grew really strongly. Ill be cutting off the other sacrifice shortly, after that its main big growth period is rewarded with rest. Maxicrop yeh.
The tree has keep kept in full sun but of course some leaves may be shaded naturally. It has been watered more than usual, I do not think I was watering enough previously. Its been fed very well and watered plenty. Due to the substrate, it cant be over watered so I have used that to my advantage.

Oh wells, will have to let time do its thing. I am happy with how I am caring for it currently, so if I am doing something wrong again, ill adapt as soon as I can figure out what .

Will be interesting to see how the leaves react on the large primary that I have cut, its been a week or 2. Then on the other which is yet to be cut.

The thing is that molar clay is designed to suck up hold a huge amount of water and that's why i don't trust about it one bit on one side it will always stay very wet and also it will suck the water out of the roots too peter Warren had his say in the matter too and will mot touch the stuff for the same reason I have doubts about it.
I would say you have more chance of overwatering using this substrate than using say neat akadama im not to sure on its ability to exchange nutrients too ive not studied this aspect of it but my guess is that it won't and you will have to feed a lot more regularly but that is just conjecture and a guess

 

[TomB]

im not to sure on its ability to exchange nutrients too ive not studied this aspect of it but my guess is that it won't and you will have to feed a lot more regularly but that is just conjecture and a guess

Actually I think moler has quite high cation exchange capacity so it is good in that respect. However it also has a low pH which can also cause problems.

 

[BobbyLane]

saying you dont trust it, when Harry has actually used it for many years and his trees always look amazing and healthy, sorta has me scratchin me head

 

[Rob_phillips]

saying you dont trust it, when Harry has actually used it for many years and his trees always look amazing and healthy, sorta has me scratchin me head

He doesn't use it now.
I will ask him on Saturday im with him all day

 

[BobbyLane]

i think peeps should also take into account how another person waters their trees when giving soil advice. if you have a drip system its very easy to stay on top of things, when doing everything by hand one needs to take into account how often or how little the trees are being watered.

 

[BobbyLane]

He doesn't use it now.
I will ask him on Saturday im with him all day

he used it for years and his trees are pretty amazing tbf mate.

 

[Rob_phillips]

i think peeps should also take into account how another person waters their trees when giving soil advice. if you have a drip system its very easy to stay on top of things, when doing everything by hand one needs to take into account how often or how little the trees are being watered.

That is a very valid point and correct
But to say you can't overwater with this stuff Is a dangerous attitude to have with it i think but I have little experience with it only listened to others and there opinions

 

[TomB]

Bobby, bear in mind he also uses very small pots, which most people don’t - that will have a bearing on how wet things stay too. As you say watering etc is important.

 

[Rob_phillips]

Hope im not coming across as a know it all its so easy to sound like that in a forum but not my intention to be honest

 

[Bnana]

The problem of overwatering (for nearly all tree species) is not that the soil is wet, the problem is that it becomes anaerobic. I don't see how you would manage that with moler, there's plenty of air in between the particles.

 

[TomB]

The problem of overwatering (for nearly all tree species) is not that the soil is wet, the problem is that it becomes anaerobic. I don't see how you would manage that with moler, there's plenty of air in between the particles.

The lower regions of a large pot full of moler can be absolutely waterlogged. I’ve seen trees die from it.

 

[Bnana]

The moler I use is coarse, about 5mm, and sieved. Therefore there is no way it becomes waterlogged, the pores between the parts are way too big for that. But it might be different with other brands that have more fine particles and might cause waterlogging.

 

[ConorDash]

This is 100% wrong. Moler clay retains a huge amount of water, both internally and between the particles. I have seen trees planted in mixes like yours absolutely waterlogged (especially using the smaller particle size you had last year). The bark makes things even worse. This is why it should be mixed with particles that give greater air filled porosity (pumice, lava). Using a high% moler, you can find the top of the pot is dry while the bottom is still wet. Especially if the root system hasn't colonised the entire pot. So you end up with a waterlogged root system, unable to take up nutrients... "Free draining" does not mean the same as "can't stay too wet". Even with better soil mixes, this can be a problem, especially in over-sized pots.

It's a minefield isn't it

I take back those words... Lol. I meant more as a general statement for inorganic substrates. But its too much of a general statement, clearly, but my fault! You've given me things to think about.. thank you. I was looking to try some pumice and akadama, anyway.
Yes its a minefield, we clearly don't talk often enough though, not passing on your knowledge enough!

 

[ajm55555]

@ConorDash @ajm55555 I have many of my shohin-in-training that look like this after I did a heavy cutback of the outer leaves/branches. It happens every year, especially in my climate. We typically have cloudy and cool days, but this time of year the sun starts to peak out with full force. Those inner leaves just aren't ready for it. Pay them no mind, they usually fall off and are replaced by new, healthy, leaves

Thanks for sharing @rodeolthr. On the other side, every time I see all the leaves going from bright green to pale and curly brown in a matter of a couple of weeks, It scares the bejesus out of me. I lost enough trees without knowing exactly why. I'm starting to see a few new very small buds on mine. Fingers crossed.

 

[ConorDash]

@ConorDash @ajm55555 I have many of my shohin-in-training that look like this after I did a heavy cutback of the outer leaves/branches. It happens every year, especially in my climate. We typically have cloudy and cool days, but this time of year the sun starts to peak out with full force. Those inner leaves just aren't ready for it. Pay them no mind, they usually fall off and are replaced by new, healthy, leavesView attachment 309560

We shall hope you are right buddy, thanks for posting.

Hi mate hope your well
yeah I have read every post on this thread and i did see you repotted the tree this year.
bit you still predominately put it into cat litter or molar clay or Diatomaceous earth or many other names for it lol im just not sold on the idea of it and its far too absorbant i could not trust it whatsoever even if the mix has a small amount of pine bark.
If your going to use it I would add it to a mix like the so called boone mix and some pine bark.
Or if you use kaizen maybe buy on of his mixes like no 1 or 2 for maples I have used it it has alot of different substrates in it and its tried and trusted here in the UK
I spoke to Harry Harrington about it and he said that he doesn't use it anymore and wasn't sure on it as a one substrate mix or even that with just pinebark .
And if you follow Peter Warren on YouTube too he has also said his price found on that substrate too.

Yeah i follow Peter. his streams are perfect uk based knowledge
I am also a member of his discord doners group too.
he is so knowledgeable and so approachable too.
why not join his discord group by donating to him and he will email you and you can post pics directly to him and trust me he is one on the best minds in European bonsai and will have a definitive answer for you especially on maples he it fantastic with the species.
Plus he lives in London maybe go pay him a visit one day when I had a one on one zoom session with him the other week he said he would be up visitors again after lockdown

Ah fair enough. Well, I have to say this does surprise me a good bit. The litter was used by a good few, Harry was a bit proponent of it and it was essentially seen as the same as most DE alternatives. I've personally used it in most, by itself for the past 4 years. Its done really well for my Elms, not used in Hornbeams, Maple did ok in it but it (OBVIOUSLY, due to this thread) has had its problems so jury is out on that one.. Used it with pyrcantha and even an Olive, and they've been fine.
Not to say the trees may have been even better but they were happy. The olive substrate is changing (it was never a good thing in this substrate, but it does seem to have done very well in it) to a Kazien Meditteranean mix.

See the Kaizen mix is a few different types of inorganic substrate and, what seems to be, some kinda soil or organic compost/soil type thing.. And I thought any kinda soil used, would be bad! Minefield, as Tom said. Dunno whats going on lol.

Do you know which video Peter talked about it? I have not seen that one yet.

Yeah enjoying his streams a lot. I see you pop up in a Shohin one yesterday, I didnt watch live, I've got it to watch. Started it this morning. I like a shohin, so I am interested.
I planned to donate already, just not gotten round to it yet but I will do shortly, or else I never will. He has been really helpful and good with his knowledge, plus having that kinda professional in the UK with UK based knowledge is the real key part.
Yeah I have his book, or at least one of them, on Maples . Seems like a nice guy too.
I have no doubt he is a member of this forum, under cover.. This forum is too popular for him not to be!

The thing is that molar clay is designed to suck up hold a huge amount of water and that's why i don't trust about it one bit on one side it will always stay very wet and also it will suck the water out of the roots too peter Warren had his say in the matter too and will mot touch the stuff for the same reason I have doubts about it.
I would say you have more chance of overwatering using this substrate than using say neat akadama im not to sure on its ability to exchange nutrients too ive not studied this aspect of it but my guess is that it won't and you will have to feed a lot more regularly but that is just conjecture and a guess

I may just have to given it a second thought, when I check for watering needs... although second guessing myself may only lead to insanity..

 

[BobbyLane]

cant say ive had any issue with kitty litter, then again i would never use it as a single component for deciduous trees on my balcony, because i find it dries out very quickly. i use it with other components. i often use it to stretch out kaizen mixes. for raw material or material in development i would often mix it with pumice, lava, pine bark and a little compost and i often use it when planting in trees in the grow bed.

 

[BobbyLane]

its all part of the curve for you i guess Conor, you could try something different next season and analyse the trees progress after a number of months.

 

[ConorDash]

its all part of the curve for you i guess Conor, you could try something different next season and analyse the trees progress after a number of months.

Yeah, all part of the curve! This tree is the definition of the damn curve lol.. after all is said and done, if this tree still looks the same or worse in 3 more years, Ill at least be able to say I learn a lot from it.

Atm the way I am trying to think is this; these "problems" are popping up and these bits of info which are contrary to my thinking, are popping up because I am being honest and doing things. If i dont do them or be honest, they dont get seen, someone, like yourself, Tom, Rob etc, wont then pop up and say, actually this might not be good. So its all good.