Acer P - repot and general style advice

[Jcmmaple]

It is a Sango Kaku, I have two training right now and the only problem I have found with them is that they get winter burn, the tips of the branches die back from the cold. Or so that’s what they told me from I bougt them, you have good tree though. I plan on planting mine on tile, so hopefully it’s not to late to do that

 

[baron]

Hi baron,
I am thinking of trying to find the best way to answer your questions, so here goes.
If you do all those air layers my concern would be for the health of the tree going forward. The red bark maples are not as strong as the regular JM’s for both growth and roots.
Chop maybe too low to start with, and yes a compromise is called for re the bottom two trunks/branches. Scars versus lots of growth, but you will get lots of growth from the top of the tree if you don’t prune and select one leader to go for it. So,you could air-layer side trunks, you could use the bottom branch as new trunk line, and lastly you could buy another maple ( regular green leaf JM) etc to practice with.
Lots of coulds here lol. So a bit of theory for you - every where on the main trunk or branches you see a pale line that goes all the way round ( sorry no computer to paint) are POTENTIAL bud out areas. But you need the tree to grow vigorously before chopping to get it to bud out so to speak. Also remember (if you didn’t know) that most trees are apically dominant so the growth at the top of the tree is the strongest. Great for growing trunks but not so easy to ramify lower branches once your tree has the 3 plus trunk sections.
See @markyscott ’s threads on trident growing - 2 to 3 metres of top growth uncontrolled (no pruning).
Maybe this photo might help the explanations ( my practice chop to prove to myself the tree would grow lol). I will take a photo tomorrow for you of this tree’s growth as my season’s growth just finishing.
View attachment 186423View attachment 186424
So two regular JM’s as you can see on the left photo where the buds are popping and the lines etc.
Anyway, my problem half is that I don’t want to tell you what to do, as you will experience this stuff first hand and learn way more than advice from others.
Happy to chat, and hope the confusion is vaguely answered?
Charles

Yes, thank you very much! It does make a lot of sense, just having a hard time making these decisions...
For now it's growing so that's ok ,plus I also like it a lot more with foilage

Follow up question; when its growing freely do you still wire branches and new growth? Somehow feels like it isn't worth the effort because most will be removed anyway when making the chop.

 

[baron]

It is a Sango Kaku, I have two training right now and the only problem I have found with them is that they get winter burn, the tips of the branches die back from the cold. Or so that’s what they told me from I bougt them, you have good tree though. I plan on planting mine on tile, so hopefully it’s not to late to do that

I noticed that a little too.. are the black or white? I tought it was pruning dieback or some sort of fungus.
However on most of mine tiny buds/leaves are beginning to show now so it seems to be pulling trough

 

[Jcmmaple]

Mine is usually black and grayish color, I cut off all the dead stuff today trying to get it back in shape and nice again. I keep mine in full sun to keep the bark that bright color

 

[Jcmmaple]

Good looking tree though, looks healthy

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Yes, thank you very much! It does make a lot of sense, just having a hard time making these decisions...
For now it's growing so that's ok ,plus I also like it a lot more with foilage

Follow up question; when its growing freely do you still wire branches and new growth? Somehow feels like it isn't worth the effort because most will be removed anyway when making the chop.

Hi baron,
I love the way Maples grow so fast in the Spring, that you seem to get new leaves almost every day.
From my analysis and all the above comments you have almost (mainly) formed a plan, and it is growing freely yaaa, but you like me are caught in the cleft stick of wanting to train a real bonsai vs waiting (zzzzzz x 1000) for the trunk to thicken before chopping.
You gave pretty much answered your own question, therefore my comments only for info and understanding etc.
So your question can be thought about like this, in 2 ways, I feel - wiring trees (especially) deciduous is only done when you have completed the first trunk chop, or some believe you should finish all chops with taper. So you have 3 plus branches set up after 3 chops, or more to choose best look via 3D etc.
OR use this tree (or an elm/JM) to practice wiring so you know when to wire, and when to take off pre bite in marks.
Also realising that if you wire branches when lignified, and cut back to ramify, you get very little girth or taper. And I am guessing that if you chop after this season, and do more chops you won’t get much girth but you get nice smooth movement. There’s no problem in having a 25mm trunk, just can’t have a finished height of more than 25cm (1:10 ratio max) because taller than that = no illusion (just a big stick etc.)
Lastly, it was recommended as a start point to get yourself 10 plus trees, so you don’t get trigger happy on this one by not letting it grow (eg. The clip and grow method). I have gone overboard and have bought and propagated quite a few now (maybe 250 odd prebonsai) which I will downsize to 50-75 odd and either sell on or send to the compost if they don’t fit my enjoyment mode. One of my threads I started is called “Springtime in Kiwi land”, which shows my Maples and other projects.
I am happy to answer questions as they help me figure out the how’s and when’s etc also.
Charles

 

[baron]

Thnx for your help Charles!

Yes, but the plan changes on a daily basis
I got that recommendation a few times already so in the past 6 months I have been buying and gathering and have 13 trees (all different species) to fiddle with
Still since this is currently the only jp maple I have so I'm kinda contemplating letting it grow for now so it can get some girth and getting me 1 or 2 regular palmatums that already have that girth to chop 'n play...

I did a quick paintjob on what the local people suggested..


I do actually have 2 other questions if you don't mind...

- I noticed some of the biogold turning white/molding? is this normal?


- the black/grey branches I mentioned before don't seem to be any good. There's three in total and I still don't think its dieback as one of em had buds pushing leaves. They have opened now but the leaves are tiny, disformed and also somewhat black Should I remove those branches to prevent it spreading down?

 

[Jcmmaple]

s

 

[Jcmmaple]

I just cut track those branches on mine, even with the leaves on it because I was afraid it would spread. But I’m not an expert that’s just what I did, I’m not telling you thats the right way. But one thing to be careful with is you might get the maple bug because you just can’t one, haha. Every chance I get I’m buying a new Japanese maple. My favorite and baby is the first one I bought, it’s a shindeshojo, lovely fall colors

 

[baron]

hmm I'm afraid I'm gonna have to do the same...
I just noticed the blackness has spread even further down!

As you can see on the pictures in the last two post it has progressed very fast. Was just on the branch tip about a week or 2 ago?
I'm just wondering how far down I should cut?

 

[Jcmmaple]

I cut mine just a little before the black starts

 

[Jcmmaple]

Just to give a better example

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

hmm I'm afraid I'm gonna have to do the same...
I just noticed the blackness has spread even further down!

As you can see on the pictures in the last two post it has progressed very fast. Was just on the branch tip about a week or 2 ago?
I'm just wondering how far down I should cut?

Hi Baron,
So I see your problem as this a concern. If you firstly cut the branch just below the black bit of the stem, AND you see no black in the stem you left behind you are fine - cut paste and cross fingers.
BUT if you cut the stem and there is still darkened (blackish) areas in the remaining stem THEN you need to keep cutting back the stem until you have no more black etc. it should be obvious and a clean green look will mean you have hopefully stopped the spread.
You may need a systemic fungicide which your tree will uptake through its leaves.
I hold my breath for this tree and hopefully this bit of die-back doesn’t spread.
Charles

 

[papymandarin]

looks like pseudomonas syringae, remove any blackened area to normal tissue, let the tree grow all year after that without trimming, its attacking firstly young/weakened trees. Keep the trees protected from rain and on a dryish side during winter, and avoid doing wounds in automn and possibly early spring, this bacteriae strives in fresh and humid conditions, only do wounds (particularly big ones) when the tree is vegetatively active and able to compartimentalize/callous (may/september).

 

[baron]

Hey @KiwiPlantGuy,
after your advice I cut the branch just below the bulge and the blackness and applied cut paste.
I inspected the cut and didn't see anymore blackness so I thought it was safe...until today...
The blackness spread down quite a lot! I'm afraid I'm gonna loose the tree if this continues



Also I applied a cork between the lowest branch and the trunk to get them to separate a little but today on closer inspection I noticed the cork has made a dent in the branch and the trunk and this also seems to be turning black?
Does this mean it isn't dieback and rather some sort of fungus that has already spread throughout the tree?



@MACH5 & @Smoke I know you guys are maple specialists, do you have any idea what this is and what I could do about it?
I know this tree isn't much but I'd still like to save it

 

[papymandarin]

it's quite normal the stub is diying back since there is no node there, maple only grow from the nodes, so you have to cut it back to the secondary branches below. The black areas because of the cork are likely just that, caused by the pressure of the cork, don't think it's something worrying. It's too late in the season to still be pseudomonas from my experience

 

[twisted trees]

Haha, yes something like that...Had this online name for a couple of years now and it started as a gaming tag

Hmm last winter the coldest we've had during the night was around -8°c I think.
Average over entire winter I'm not sure, but if I look at weather data it would be around 2-3°C.

I'm still not sure if it is a Sango Kaku or what I'm planning to do with it.
The more I think about it the more I feel like layering off the 3 straight branches (they are to upright now and can't bend them down anymore) and then chopping the trunk.

Very well done. Now, pick the branches you want and let it grow, let it grow, let it grow.

 

[0soyoung]

Let's suppose it is a fungus. Have you been 'sterilizing' your pruner? Best way I know to spread a fungal infection is to cut infected tissue - fungal matter is then on the blade (need I say more?).

Wipe the cutting surfaces with 70% or stronger isopropyl alcohol after every cut in circumstances like this.

This is the season for verticillium wilt. It gets in and clogs the xylem. Hence it progresses upward. There is no cure other than being lucky enough to cut off all infected tissue. But this problem isn't progressing upward.

Nectria canker is mostly in the cambium but also gets into the xylem; so it spreads away from the point entry but would be seen as progressing downward from a pruning cut. Nectria is manifest in mid- to late-summer and easily identified be little orange fruiting bodies. Cauterization of the fruited and surrounding area with the flame of a butane torch is the only effective treatment that I know.

I suggest you just chop it or just quit executing the time honored technique of death by a thousand cuts. What I see doesn't seem unusual for Sango Kaku pruned during spring rains.

 

[papymandarin]

indeed, the variety is very susceptible to those problems, always keeping the tree strong and avoid doing cuts in early spring or automn is the best prevention

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hey @KiwiPlantGuy,
after your advice I cut the branch just below the bulge and the blackness and applied cut paste.
I inspected the cut and didn't see anymore blackness so I thought it was safe...until today...
The blackness spread down quite a lot! I'm afraid I'm gonna loose the tree if this continues

View attachment 195196

Also I applied a cork between the lowest branch and the trunk to get them to separate a little but today on closer inspection I noticed the cork has made a dent in the branch and the trunk and this also seems to be turning black?
Does this mean it isn't dieback and rather some sort of fungus that has already spread throughout the tree?

View attachment 195197View attachment 195198

@MACH5 & @Smoke I know you guys are maple specialists, do you have any idea what this is and what I could do about it?
I know this tree isn't much but I'd still like to save it

Hi baron,
Seems like everyone else has answered your question. I wouldn’t worry, the dieback should stop at the main trunk. So leave it alone to grow, and grow, get many trees so you are not tempted to keep trying to prune/kill this one with too much love.
Post your tree in your next winter and we will analyze further if need be.
Charles