A couple more on the bay, Ficus this time

[Redwood Ryan]

Did you really take the time to post " another argument" ???
This is ridiculous... There is no argument here, just my opinion.
If someone is going to be a cheap individual, let's say, for a lack of better
words... then you clearly picked the wrong hobby to participate in.
I would suggest you go try bird watching.
And if you are going to whine every time some one post something
where they disagree with what has been said, then perhaps you have
been away to long from the "let's all hold hands club"...

Uhm....I just posted "another argument." Wow...

P.S. Stacy, please stop hitting the enter key.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Perhaps
you
need
to
practice
your
timing
of
when
and
what
you
post ???
Or
try
instead
contributing
something
relevant.

You're right, you're not worth my time.


Nathan, are you going to post these again? I'm going to keep driving up the prices past the reserve.

 

[pwk5017]

Sorry, but I would have to disagree...
I can't speak first hand, for I have never been to Japan, so perhaps
someone who has can chime in... But, from all of the videos I have seen
as well as some of the listings I have seen, the price of trees in Japan
seems to be extremely high in comparison to what prices are here in
the states... Now granted the material seems to be of higher quality,
but so does the price, which in essence should go hand in hand.

My personal feelings towards all this is that here in America we seem to
want a tree that someone has worked and put some descent amount of
time and effort into to make a more quality stock, for peanuts and chump
change.

I think there is actually a lot of very nice material out there if one is only willing
to pay the price for it... But do you really expect someone who just spent years
developing some really nice stock to then try and turn it over to someone
who was only willing to throw out a few bones for it ???
If it was me... I would just have to laugh, and would rather dig a big hole and
throw them in, then be insulted by such an offer.

For me I think we here in America always seem to want something for nothing.
Want nice stuff ??? Sorry, but for the most part you gottta kinda step up to the
plate here....

Anyone here thinking they will be paying less than $200 dollars for anything
slightly decent... In my opinion needs to go back to playing 52 card pick-up,
and let the rest of us get back to our game of poker.

Yikes, you kind of went off the handle there with Ryan. Not to mention your retort to my post was confused/angry. Somebody had a bad Sunday! However, since you dont know the difference between "loose" and "lose" I will be skipping out on any arguements--a certain Mark Twain quote comes to mind.

I dont think you read my post that well. How much is your average piece of bonsai stock cost? I just told you my average purchase is $500-600 for raw stock. These are usually just nebari and trunks. For that much in Japan, I would get a much better tree/more refined tree for the same price. Like I said, on the WEST coast, I would get the same piece of material for 20-25% less. Have Al tell you about the material that is available to him and at what prices. Its cheaper, because there is more of it! That is my point. Ever price decent tokoname ware with some patina? Its 3 times cheaper in Japan than America, because it is extremely plentiful there!

 

[bonsaibp]

I try really hard to stay out of this things online but this is an issue that really gets me.
As a nursery owner I would love it if people only bought $200.00 and up material.
But the fact of the matter is that -
a.some people can't afford to spend that much they have other monetary commitments.
b. some people are not interested in making world class or even what some of us consider really good bonsai- it's a hobby and they just enjoy puttering around with little trees.
c. some people may want too but don't have the confidence in their skills, yet.
d. some people don't have access to that kind of material- and for some the internet is not an option, they want/need to see and feel the tree.
e. some people don't have the time- family, work etc. have to take priority.
and there could be many other reasons. Are we to exclude them from enjoying bonsai as they see it and enjoy because they aren't conforming to our ideals? Are those that can and will spend the $ better people? or even better bonsaists? Is spending hundreds of dollars on a piece of material a guarantee it's going to turn into a good bonsai? No, it doesn't. I love the fact that bonsai is starting to be appreciated more as an art form here but that doesn't mean that everyone involved has to strive to be a master. And no I'm not promoting mediocrity -I'm recognizing the fact that there are many different motivations for doing bonsai.
Does everyone who picks up a paint brush need to become a world class artist? Should we say they can't just enjoy painting? Who is anyone to impose their will on another? Is it really good for the future of bonsai to exclude everyone that can't pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a tree? The fact is that it is a small percent of the people involved in bonsai that can and do spend that kind of money. I truly appreciate those people that can and do but the bottom line is they make up about 20% of my sales the rest are from people that come in and spend 15-100 dollars.
I fully support the efforts to try to raise the level of bonsai in this country but I also recognize the fact that there are and always will be different levels of skill, commitment and resources available to people and understand that that is ok and it will not hold back bonsai. If anything the idea that you have to spend big bucks will hold it back even more. How many would not even get started if they believed you couldn't get a decent tree for less then a few hundred or more dollars?
Its great that there are more and more people striving to improve their bonsai and bonsai in general but I think it is important that we don't push people away by being elitist or trying to force our own beliefs down their throats.

 

[nathanbs]

You're right, you're not worth my time.


Nathan, are you going to post these again? I'm going to keep driving up the prices past the reserve.

The cheaper one met reserve and the other got all of the way up to $197.50 or something on the relist. I can relist it again or sell it to you outright you tell me

 

[Redwood Ryan]

The cheaper one met reserve and the other got all of the way up to $197.50 or something on the relist. I can relist it again or sell it to you outright you tell me

Ah so it did meet reserve. I'll have to check my benches to see if I actually DO have room for another tree

 

[coh]

I try really hard to stay out of this things online but this is an issue that really gets me.
As a nursery owner I would love it if people only bought $200.00 and up material.
But the fact of the matter is that -

a.some people can't afford to spend that much they have other monetary commitments.
b. some people are not interested in making world class or even what some of us consider really good bonsai- it's a hobby and they just enjoy puttering around with little trees.
c. some people may want too but don't have the confidence in their skills, yet.
d. some people don't have access to that kind of material- and for some the internet is not an option, they want/need to see and feel the tree.
e. some people don't have the time- family, work etc. have to take priority.

and there could be many other reasons. Are we to exclude them from enjoying bonsai as they see it and enjoy because they aren't conforming to our ideals? Are those that can and will spend the $ better people? or even better bonsaists? Is spending hundreds of dollars on a piece of material a guarantee it's going to turn into a good bonsai? No, it doesn't. I love the fact that bonsai is starting to be appreciated more as an art form here but that doesn't mean that everyone involved has to strive to be a master. And no I'm not promoting mediocrity -I'm recognizing the fact that there are many different motivations for doing bonsai.

Does everyone who picks up a paint brush need to become a world class artist? Should we say they can't just enjoy painting? Who is anyone to impose their will on another? Is it really good for the future of bonsai to exclude everyone that can't pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for a tree? The fact is that it is a small percent of the people involved in bonsai that can and do spend that kind of money. I truly appreciate those people that can and do but the bottom line is they make up about 20% of my sales the rest are from people that come in and spend 15-100 dollars.

I fully support the efforts to try to raise the level of bonsai in this country but I also recognize the fact that there are and always will be different levels of skill, commitment and resources available to people and understand that that is ok and it will not hold back bonsai. If anything the idea that you have to spend big bucks will hold it back even more. How many would not even get started if they believed you couldn't get a decent tree for less then a few hundred or more dollars?

Its great that there are more and more people striving to improve their bonsai and bonsai in general but I think it is important that we don't push people away by being elitist or trying to force our own beliefs down their throats.

I just wanted to copy and paste this because I think it's the best summary I've seen...it's what I was thinking in one of my earlier posts where I said there are many reasons people are willing/able to spend what they do on trees, but I was too lazy to write more.

Good growers with good stock are selling well. Brent Walston sold all (or nearly all) of the first group of elms he posted, and many of his pines as well. Don has sold many trees to members of this forum (at prices I assume he is satisfied with). So there is a market out there. Ebay is probably not the best venue for those kinds of sellers, as people do generally go there looking for bargains. Perhaps the approach on ebay should be to set a starting point or reserve (or buy it now) you'd be satisfied with and see what happens. It may take multiple attempts at different times of year. Dead of winter is not considered to be the best time to be shipping trees in the colder areas, so maybe wait till the weather breaks later in the winter.

I don't really see where people are saying "They should give up their products that have alot of time and Effort free of charge" Again, there are a range of people who will purchase at a range of price points...and it will always be that way.

Chris

 

[Don Blackmond]

The cheaper one met reserve and the other got all of the way up to $197.50 or something on the relist. I can relist it again or sell it to you outright you tell me

I apologize for derailing your thread. In hindsight, I should have limited my response to your post and ebay listings. Sorry.

 

[JudyB]

I don't know if nathanbs is bothered by this, but I think that this is a good discussion and one that needs to be had. Discussion of course not arguments..... It's important to hear from all the sides of the issue to form a realistic and fair view of the situation.

 

[A Random User]

I went through and deleted my comments seeing that clearly there
can only be a discussion here at B-Nut if one agrees with what has been
posted... Now you all can hold hands again.

 

[lordy]

I went through and deleted my comments seeing that clearly there
can only be a discussion here at B-Nut if one agrees with what has been
posted... Now you all can hold hands again.

Wow Stacey. Are you also going to hold your breath until you turn blue????

 

[nathanbs]

I apologize for derailing your thread. In hindsight, I should have limited my response to your post and ebay listings. Sorry.

I don't know if nathanbs is bothered by this, but I think that this is a good discussion and one that needs to be had. Discussion of course not arguments..... It's important to hear from all the sides of the issue to form a realistic and fair view of the situation.

Not at all Don, as Judy said it is a good discussion.

 

[coh]

I went through and deleted my comments seeing that clearly there
can only be a discussion here at B-Nut if one agrees with what has been
posted... Now you all can hold hands again.

Wow, that is such a childish thing to do.

 

[Nybonsai12]

I buy a wide variety of material. I'm lucky in that I've been able to buy expensive trees from reputable vendors and I've bought cheap trees in hopes of turning them into something one day. I've also killed some from both sides too!

But some people stick to one side or the other, so whats wrong with that? Nothing. The more people that are interested in bonsai, the better. Whichever side you agree with, nobody needs to get all butthurt from comments on a forum. Geez...

 

[Poink88]

Most of these woes are due to (wrong) timing.

1. Winter - is not the best time to sell trees. It is not what most people look for right now.
2. Economy - is still sluggish, wait until we recover IF you want to get better prices.
3. After the holidays - most people are now paying their credit card bills and buying trees may not be very high in their priorities right now.

Problem with avoiding the above is more competition later. For sure it is a buyers market right now...esp those who have more change to spare. Note that the higher the price the less competition there is also. Steals are on the higher end actually.

When I was still selling on eBay, I even watch which day and what time my listing should end. Worst is Friday & Saturday evenings...everyone is partying. LOL.

 

[Poink88]

FWIW, I believe eBay is the best venue to unload junk (to get the most out of it). For some reason people compete for it. (don't ask me why).

The gems, save them and sell on better venue. JMHO

 

[nathanbs]

FWIW, I believe eBay is the best venue to unload junk (to get the most out of it). For some reason people compete for it. (don't ask me why).

The gems, save them and sell on better venue. JMHO

The question is what's the better venue?

 

[nathanbs]

Most of these woes are due to (wrong) timing.

1. Winter - is not the best time to sell trees. It is not what most people look for right now.
2. Economy - is still sluggish, wait until we recover IF you want to get better prices.
3. After the holidays - most people are now paying their credit card bills and buying trees may not be very high in their priorities right now.

Problem with avoiding the above is more competition later. For sure it is a buyers market right now...esp those who have more change to spare. Note that the higher the price the less competition there is also. Steals are on the higher end actually.

When I was still selling on eBay, I even watch which day and what time my listing should end. Worst is Friday & Saturday evenings...everyone is partying. LOL.

There is definitely good and bad times to sell and immediately after Christmas is probably not one of them. Unfortunately that is when I had some free time and I figured many others do as well. I figured since bonsai is a disease people would spend the money whether they had it or not

 

[KennedyMarx]

I've found that the best time to list things on eBay is Friday or Saturday. That way people get paid and feel like they have more money than perhaps they do to bid on items. Starting it at $.99 helps too if you're confident you'll find a lot of people to compete for your item. That assumes it's quality and not junk you're trying to pass off. Lower reserves also seem to make people bid more, but then again you are more likely to lose money if someone doesn't come arias the sale.

 

[Ron Dennis]

Possiblly a better venue

The question is what's the better venue?

Check out "Bonsai Classifieds" on FB. If you have not seen this already, it is a new format created by Mark Goodman. So far there has been one auction and another is coming up. It may not be the answer to a better venue but it is worth taking a look. One thing I like very much is you are dealing with people already into the hobby and who knows values.