$1.00 Nana

[No it's not...]

Bigbill, asked for and received some opinions, some of which were not what he wanted to hear. In response he started the disenchanted thread basically complaining about the advice he received. This was not proper and it is my personal opinion that he owes this forum an apology.


As a member here I very much disagree with you on this statement!
He owes NO APOLOGY TO ANYONE!

Mom

I have to agree with Irene.

 

[Anonymous User]

Irene,

With all due respect, I have asked twice to be shown where I was rude, negative, condescending, discouraging, etc in my reply to bigbill.

The truth is I wasn't, you are fighting windmills.

My reply was truthful, kind, and offered sound advice about acquiring other stock to work with until this piece is healthy enough to work on.

Please also keep in mind that bigbill's disenchanted thread was posted before I replied in this thread.


I am however, surprised at your resorting to name calling while accusing me of not being "nice."



Will

 

[Moley-O]

Im gonna be hit by the bullet I bet you...

Will, You are an Acheived Bonsai-ist. You have articles in major Magazines as well as the ABS journal. Your Article in the spring Journal was well written and Vances Illustration was commended. You have said whats on your mind and I commend you.

I think the issue is two-fold. bigbill for not accepting an opinion or comment or lack thereof and, now maybe this is a mistake, the idea that this is becoming a power trip. Now Im not attacking anybody but...I think the reason people call you a pompous big head, is because everytime someone says this or that to you, in kind or supposed aggression, you always back it up by saying, well I won this, and I wrote that... oh I did a demo for them... Lets put that aside because we all know this mate.

As for commenting and suggestions, Bonsai is known to have been passed down from generations and in that respect we, experienced and rogue bonsai artists, should be more then willing to pass what we know to the new generation. All comments or critique is welcome regardless of skill, if you know or see something I dont, Please say so!

We all share a passion for dem wee trees so instead of throwing shears and trimmers, lets throw cuttings instead...they hurt alot less and noone gets turned off by receiving a cutting. We all want those cuttings to root.

 

[agraham]

Ok Will,

I think your advice was good and I agree with most of what you said.I also think you said it in a nice way.

But consider this, if you please.There have been enough people on here who think it was a condescending and rude post that it should make one pause and think.Instead of defending yourself...why not try to acknowledge that perhaps your post wasn't taken in the way you meant it?....or let it go.The more defensive you get,the more your posts descend into self aggrandizement.

As an example...."Consider where I am a(sic) editor and moderator at(sic) and weigh my response accordingly."

You may not have meant it to,but this statement sounds a little pompous to me.What difference does it make WHERE you're an editor?Are you trying to say that Dorothy is an editor of a lesser site than where you are an editor?I doubt if that is what you meant...but that is the way it sounded.

btw....for an "editor"....you have several bad grammar habits that are irritating.An is the correct adjective to precede a noun or another adjective that begins with a vowel.As in AN editor.Also, You might want to learn how to use the word seen.Seen is the past participle of the verb see.It is most often used with an(note the use of AN) auxiliary; have,was,etc, to form the past perfect tense.

I see
I saw
I have seen.It was seen.

Also,the word "at" is a preposition.Rarely would one properly use a preposition in the way you have used it in your statement I quoted above.As matter of fact,there is no need for that particular preposition in your sentence.

A corrected statement might be as follows...."Consider where I am an editor and a moderator and weigh my response accordingly."....still pompous,but at least grammatically correct.


I hope you don't mind me giving you this information.I consider it nice and helpful,not condescending at all.I also consider that I pointed out these facts in order to help you and further your "editing" career.It would be unfair to let you continue making the same grammatical errors over and over.Seriously...I'm just trying to help.I am being truthful.Sometimes the truth hurts,but it should always be used in a positive way.

See what I mean?

andy

 

[Rick Moquin]

With all due respect, I have asked twice to be shown where I was rude, negative, condescending, discouraging, etc in my reply to bigbill.

I'll tell you what I think at the risk of disenchanting you further, I'll tell you what every beginner needs to hear, but most will be deaf to. I'll tell you what every experienced bonsaist wishes they would have learned sooner.

There will come a time in your experience in bonsai that a mental curtain will open up and you will either plant most of your early attempts in the ground, give them away, sell them, or toss them. A time when you will commit to getting better stock, a time when such a piece as the one you have shown here will not even rate a second glance from you.

Right now you are blind in one eye, you can not see the flaws in this piece. This is most likely because you have not had the experience with better stock and you are excited and motivated to "do" bonsai.

Great motivational speach. I know this is the way you and many others were brought up at BT, but is/was it the right way? BTW I'm no bleeding heart, but I was not moved.

My reply was truthful, kind, and offered sound advice about acquiring other stock to work with until this piece is healthy enough to work on.

This IMHO is where or how the post should have started.

Will,

You continually refuse everyone's opinion, but yet you would want everyone to accept everything you say verbatim. Is this the right way of doing business?

I am also disappointed with the overall tone of the site at times, many others have voiced similar opinions, yet they continue to be ignored. Personally I have no intention of getting into "pissing matches with skunks" (no offense intended to anyone) I am here to learn.

 

[irene_b]

Irene,

With all due respect, I have asked twice to be shown where I was rude, negative, condescending, discouraging, etc in my reply to bigbill.


And I have pointed it out to you the beginining of your posting is.
And other postings by other members have pointed out to you as well what they also see as condesending/pompus/disrespectful.



The truth is I wasn't, you are fighting windmills.


Where are the windmills?


My reply was truthful, kind, and offered sound advice about acquiring other stock to work with until this piece is healthy enough to work on.


You repeated what I posted to him.


Please also keep in mind that bigbill's disenchanted thread was posted before I replied in this thread.


That is a seperate thread.


I am however, surprised at your resorting to name calling while accusing me of not being "nice."
Will


Will I did not call you names.



And just for the record. You do not have to reply to any thread, that you feel which you would feel would just be repeating what another member has suggested.
Irene

 

[Smoke]

Man it don't get any better than this.
Man thats entertainment.

...and CUT....print. Get that one in the can boys.

Al

 

[Anonymous User]

Ok Will,

I think your advice was good and I agree with most of what you said.I also think you said it in a nice way.

Thank you.

As an example...."Consider where I am a(sic) editor and moderator at(sic) and weigh my response accordingly."

You may not have meant it to,but this statement sounds a little pompous to me.What difference does it make WHERE you're an editor?Are you trying to say that Dorothy is an editor of a lesser site than where you are an editor?I doubt if that is what you meant...but that is the way it sounded.

Please remember that it was cascade, Dorothy, that used my position as an editor and moderator as an example, my response was directed at her comment alone and referenced only what she brought up herself.

btw....for an "editor"....you have several bad grammar habits that are irritating.An is the correct adjective to precede a noun or another adjective that begins with a vowel.As in AN editor.Also, You might want to learn how to use the word seen.Seen is the past participle of the verb see.It is most often used with an(note the use of AN) auxiliary; have,was,etc, to form the past perfect tense.

I see
I saw
I have seen.It was seen.

Also,the word "at" is a preposition.Rarely would one properly use a preposition in the way you have used it in your statement I quoted above.As matter of fact,there is no need for that particular preposition in your sentence.

A corrected statement might be as follows...."Consider where I am an editor and a moderator and weigh my response accordingly."....still pompous,but at least grammatically correct.

Thank you. I know a place that could use your skills, if you're ever interested, PM me.




Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Irene,

It is obvious that you can not point out where I was rude or unkind in my post to bigbill, thus the dragon you are fighting is just a windmill, nothing more.

I gave bigbill my opinion and my advice, he is a grown man who can decide on if he will ignore it or not, as we all do.


Will

 

[BonsaiWes]

Big Bill,

The drawing is the way to go!

 

[Tachigi]

Mmmmmm....wonder if Bigbill will be back. This maybe entertainment for some. Away to up your post count for others, or just away for some to get there dose of daily therapy. If this keeps up you all will be stuck with each other (like a bad scifi flick) with no new blood. Then the term DaNut house will then be very appripo.

 

[Smoke]

Mmmmmm....wonder if Bigbill will be back. This maybe entertainment for some. Away to up your post count for others, or just away for some to get there dose of daily therapy. If this keeps up you all will be stuck with each other (like a bad scifi flick) with no new blood. Then the term DaNut house will then be very appripo.

Yes very true. Then it will be much the same as it was before the internet. It will bonsai chicken for some and bonsai feathers for the rest. I suggest if someone lives in bonsai feathers they ought to listen to what some of the bonsai chickens have to say, rude or not. I remember my first in person experience with Marco Invernizzi. After I took a couple valiums and sat in my car thirty minutes to cool off, I was able to walk back in the room and start learning. I decided it was just a wee bit better to put up with a rather arrogant son of a buck than miss the opportunity on what was a very valuable workshop in the end.

 

[John Hill]

OK,
I have been following this thread kinda, sorta.
Bill I know you saved this tree in hopes that it will be of something that you can hold close to your heart. I too started out this way. I soon (after a many years) figured out that I did not have enough time to get that tree I was looking for in small material. The further you grow into bonsai the more you will see. Yes don't get me wrong,, a small plant like this can indeed become a nice bonsai. But to me this plant would feel more at home,, say,, a landscape planting? Am I wrong? Do you see where I am coming from Bill? I know that you want to create bonsai and I know that you will in time. Hell,, (hope I don't get in trouble with the young ones,, Irene) I still have trouble creating good bonsai but I keep on keepin on. I know that you can develop a great bonsai in your eyes but if you post it, it will have all the flaws imaginable so we look past this and push on. Hey looks great in my back yard!!
I do bonsai for my own self inner peace. I don't do bonsai to compete. Think of the masters of years past did they do bonsai to please every Tom, Dick, and Harry? I think not! He did bonsai from the heart and he most likely was the only one that criticized his own work, and probably the only one to see it ,except for his family.. So he was at peace with his plant. The Years have gone by and it must of taken a turn ,,somehow it became really competitive. Don't know why and still don't.
I know that there are alot of people on these forums that are hungry for the truth in bonsai,,when there is not really a truth. Bonsai comes from the heart and hearts are like people, each and every one has one but they are all different.
So Bill and all that are beginning the obsession,, don't fret,, just keep growing these fantastic little trees and when you have grown them long enough you will see that it will ,and I say will, touch your heart!

A Friend in bonsai
John

 

[Graydon]

I remember my first in person experience with Marco Invernizzi. After I took a couple valiums and sat in my car thirty minutes to cool off, I was able to walk back in the room and start learning. I decided it was just a wee bit better to put up with a rather arrogant son of a buck than miss the opportunity on what was a very valuable workshop in the end.

Ha. That there is funny. A similar thing happened when I first met Guy Guidry. He was a little rough the first morning but by the end of the weekend I was showing him how to light a crack pipe lighter... I mean a pencil torch.

Will - I got the Don Quixote reference and chuckled. I am a huge fan of La Mancha get chills when I even think about the Broadway revival version... anyhow for those out of the know... Don Quixote approaches another neighbor, Sancho Panza, and asks him to be his squire, promising him governorship of an island. The rather dull-witted Sancho agrees, and the pair sneak off in the early dawn. It is here that their series of famous adventures begin, starting with Don Quixote's attack on windmills that he believes to be ferocious giants. For a moment I equated you to Dennis Miller commenting on Monday Night Football. Dante's inferno indeed.

 

[rlist]

Don Quixote's attack on windmills that he believes to be ferocious giants.[/I]

Thanks for clearing that up. Since I am illiterate, I just thought Will was being condescending and arrogant again...

 

[Graydon]

Thanks for clearing that up. Since I am illiterate, I just thought Will was being condescending and arrogant again...

You are welcome. And may I point out this great new thing for those who have reading issues - books on tape? E-books are even better unless you are not gadget literate. But I digress, as LeVar Burton once said "reading is fundimental". Bonsai books count, right?

 

[Anonymous User]

...I got the Don Quixote reference and chuckled. I am a huge fan of La Mancha get chills when I even think about the Broadway revival version... anyhow for those out of the know... Don Quixote approaches another neighbor, Sancho Panza, and asks him to be his squire, promising him governorship of an island. The rather dull-witted Sancho agrees, and the pair sneak off in the early dawn. It is here that their series of famous adventures begin, starting with Don Quixote's attack on windmills that he believes to be ferocious giants.

I thought the reference was lost, I'm happy it wasn't. I am also a fan of La Mancha, but I perfer Milton's Hell to Dante's.



Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for clearing that up. Since I am illiterate, I just thought Will was being condescending and arrogant again...

Lol, funny, real funny.





Will

 

[Kent E]

I'm nobody but I do have a third person perspective.

Will, you do come across arogant. You must know this by now, I do, and I've only been at this for a month. It's kinda interesting that I've seen this thread before at another place. How about not always getting the last word in or not defending yourself, let your statments stand on their merit. I think this will end most of your trouble.

I also believe you are exactly right. I would love it if you told me my stuff was landscape. I would learn. I want honesty. To be able to accept this hard criticism whether it is accurate or not is called humility. Which brings us to, we probably shouldn't be finding our value in what we posess. Just enjoy. If you are there, than you won't care about criticism.

At the same time, everyone else has made Will the center of this thread, why? Can't you just let him say his peace and move on and say yours? I saw some old threads somewhere else and Will's input brought vitality. Now that place seems to have lost some umph, that is why I am here. I think it would be a loss for all if it turned out that way here. Will brings an important piece. So, all in all I'm saying, people other than Will are perpetuating the "Will is a jerky windmill thing".

Or whatever... Carry on. Something about a tree... or...ehhh...

 

[AndyWilson]

Just getting my post count up..