$1.00 Nana
- Thread starter BigBill
- Start date
AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
Hi Big Bill,
I read your post about your "disanchantment".
I don't do so many virtuals nowadays, but I wanted to make sure you don't stay in such a depressed mood, so this is my "vision" of a possible future for your tree.
I prefer the face where I think the beginning of the trunk has a nice movement, and I would cut off the branches on the right and make a shari.
The line of the branch on the left is too straight, but I'm sure this can be corrected using raphia and wiring it.
And no sarcasms about my virtual, or I reply in French (...and you'll know what the expression "Excuse my french" stands for
)
I read your post about your "disanchantment".
I don't do so many virtuals nowadays, but I wanted to make sure you don't stay in such a depressed mood, so this is my "vision" of a possible future for your tree.
I prefer the face where I think the beginning of the trunk has a nice movement, and I would cut off the branches on the right and make a shari.
The line of the branch on the left is too straight, but I'm sure this can be corrected using raphia and wiring it.
And no sarcasms about my virtual, or I reply in French (...and you'll know what the expression "Excuse my french" stands for
)
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BigBill
Yamadori
Thanks Alan. I would never say anything bad about your virt, I cant figure out how to do it.
Thats the direction I want to go and seeing your virt makes me see that in my opinion it works.
I never thought about the shari tho. I like it.
thanks again
Bill
Thats the direction I want to go and seeing your virt makes me see that in my opinion it works.
I never thought about the shari tho. I like it.
thanks again
Bill
Anonymous User
Banned
Well, well, well....
I'll tell you what I think at the risk of disenchanting you further, I'll tell you what every beginner needs to hear, but most will be deaf to. I'll tell you what every experienced bonsaist wishes they would have learned sooner.
There will come a time in your experience in bonsai that a mental curtain will open up and you will either plant most of your early attempts in the ground, give them away, sell them, or toss them. A time when you will commit to getting better stock, a time when such a piece as the one you have shown here will not even rate a second glance from you.
Right now you are blind in one eye, you can not see the flaws in this piece. This is most likely because you have not had the experience with better stock and you are excited and motivated to "do" bonsai. This is a good thing, being excited, you will go through many pieces of such poor stock, it's part of the process, you will kill some, others will be just butt ugly, some will live and eventually take a back seat to better stock. Don't feel bad, even some experienced people are still blind in one eye, see this article.
The virtuals presented here are nice, but what they fail to mention is the time it would take to achieve them, years, maybe ten to achieve the trunks and foliage they show. With better stock this time could be shortened, but even with the same amount of time, the end product will be far better.
That's the kicker with public forums, you show what you think was a great deal, a future masterpiece and those who have been there will set the record straight, disenchanting? Maybe, but in a good way, would you really want people to lie just to make you feel good? All that would do is postpone the time that you will move up, gain experience, create better trees, and recognize good stock. Besides if they lie to you, or sugar coat the facts on this piece of stock, what value would their words have when they say a piece of stock is good that really is good?
My advice?
Try and keep the tree alive, do nothing else for now, let it recover, it needs massive growth, let it grow, don't trim it, don't wire it, just let it grow. After a year or so, if it lives, then start practicing pinching, pruning, wiring, slowly, watch how the species reacts, learn.
Meanwhile, pick up a couple different species, maybe a couple more of these, try and find interesting trunks with old looking bark and movement, compare six side by side before buying and pick the one whose trunks looks the oldest and has visible surface roots, and rough bark....
Bonsai is about tomorrow, care taken selecting trees today will bring the tomorrows much closer.
Will
I'll tell you what I think at the risk of disenchanting you further, I'll tell you what every beginner needs to hear, but most will be deaf to. I'll tell you what every experienced bonsaist wishes they would have learned sooner.
There will come a time in your experience in bonsai that a mental curtain will open up and you will either plant most of your early attempts in the ground, give them away, sell them, or toss them. A time when you will commit to getting better stock, a time when such a piece as the one you have shown here will not even rate a second glance from you.
Right now you are blind in one eye, you can not see the flaws in this piece. This is most likely because you have not had the experience with better stock and you are excited and motivated to "do" bonsai. This is a good thing, being excited, you will go through many pieces of such poor stock, it's part of the process, you will kill some, others will be just butt ugly, some will live and eventually take a back seat to better stock. Don't feel bad, even some experienced people are still blind in one eye, see this article.
The virtuals presented here are nice, but what they fail to mention is the time it would take to achieve them, years, maybe ten to achieve the trunks and foliage they show. With better stock this time could be shortened, but even with the same amount of time, the end product will be far better.
That's the kicker with public forums, you show what you think was a great deal, a future masterpiece and those who have been there will set the record straight, disenchanting? Maybe, but in a good way, would you really want people to lie just to make you feel good? All that would do is postpone the time that you will move up, gain experience, create better trees, and recognize good stock. Besides if they lie to you, or sugar coat the facts on this piece of stock, what value would their words have when they say a piece of stock is good that really is good?
My advice?
Try and keep the tree alive, do nothing else for now, let it recover, it needs massive growth, let it grow, don't trim it, don't wire it, just let it grow. After a year or so, if it lives, then start practicing pinching, pruning, wiring, slowly, watch how the species reacts, learn.
Meanwhile, pick up a couple different species, maybe a couple more of these, try and find interesting trunks with old looking bark and movement, compare six side by side before buying and pick the one whose trunks looks the oldest and has visible surface roots, and rough bark....
Bonsai is about tomorrow, care taken selecting trees today will bring the tomorrows much closer.
Will
BigBill
Yamadori
Will,
I know this tree will not be anything for quite a while. The original spirit I intended for this thread was to see what people could come up with for a challenging long-term project. As I said, I plan on it one day being a semi-cascade. I have better stock. But if I put up a pic of a trident maple or a JBP that only needed a trim. There isnt much discusion in that. I wanted to see how creative people are and maybe I could get an idea that I hadn't thought of.
Well I finally got some of what I was looking for. I never asked anybody to lie or sugar coat anything. I just asked for it to be constructive. I'm a big boy I can handle it.
Some reason I happen to like this little tree. If it died tomarrow, would it matter, probably not. But I see it for what it is. A long term project.
Bill
I know this tree will not be anything for quite a while. The original spirit I intended for this thread was to see what people could come up with for a challenging long-term project. As I said, I plan on it one day being a semi-cascade. I have better stock. But if I put up a pic of a trident maple or a JBP that only needed a trim. There isnt much discusion in that. I wanted to see how creative people are and maybe I could get an idea that I hadn't thought of.
Well I finally got some of what I was looking for. I never asked anybody to lie or sugar coat anything. I just asked for it to be constructive. I'm a big boy I can handle it.
Some reason I happen to like this little tree. If it died tomarrow, would it matter, probably not. But I see it for what it is. A long term project.
Bill
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Well sorry Bill I misjudged you. I had no idea this was a challenge. I like challenges.
I withdraw my previous remarks and leave you with this. This is what I would do with it if it were mine.
Attachments
AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
Partly true : one has to form their sense of aesthetics gradually, it doesn't come out of the blue, like that. So trying to work not-so-good material is a good way of learning by trial and error, which also implies you don't have to ruin yourself to learn. Learning takes time, and one never stops to learn, or he's dead.
For a few years, I only had deciduous trees, and I realised thet some of those that I thought were "good" were in fact ugly. I chopped back some of them, planted other into the ground, and styled them in a different way. It's more difficult to do with conifers probably, but still, the worst bonsai is a dead bonsaï : where there's life, there's hope.
For instance, this acer campestre was a stick in a pot with ugly roots some ten years ago. After a few years during which I left it aside, I planted it in a hedge :
- 1 : February 2005 (I have no photo of the tree in its pot, unfortunately)
- 2 : the ground behind was very hard so it developped horizontal roots
- 3 : March 2007 (the bigger branch in the top left is here to help the wounds heal, it will be cut later)
- 4 : 7 July 2007 : the leaves are still big for a field maple, but hopefully they will reduce when the ramification process will really start.
Still a few years before it is really a bonsaï, but I sometimes have the feeling I am turning sh*** into gold. You have to be presumptuous if you decide to do bonsai, don't you think so Will?...
I also have acer palmatums, common and Chinese junipers waiting for the right time to be put in a grow box in my garden.
Yes, it will take some years to achieve something nice with this juniper. But I find you very pessimistic, Will. Wait and see...
Alain
Anonymous User
Banned
Alain, there is a difference between growing stock out and styling stock that should be grown out. We all have stock in the ground or in grow pots, seedlings, cuttings, or layers...all long term projects.
You showed us some stock you are growing...but you never asked us how to style it, see the difference?
Not pessimistic, but realistic.
Will
You showed us some stock you are growing...but you never asked us how to style it, see the difference?
Not pessimistic, but realistic.
Will
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AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
I quite agree with you, but what I wanted to say is that you do not decide one day to become a bonsai "artist" and -Shazzam! the day before you were an ignorant, and the next day, you wake up with twenty years of experience that descended upon you during your sleep
So let's try to give advice that may help understand how a tree could be styled if...
If it fails, start anew with another tree, if it works, so much the better.
In any case, you will have gained experience. Experience can be an enchanting process too.
I understand what you mean, but you have years of practise behind you, and some people may feel taken aback and discouraged when you are too straightforward, see what I mean?...
cascade
Shohin
Will,
you really surprise me.As editors and moderators we know that there is something else than 'lying' about one person's tree.We usually call it politeness or thoughtfulness.As forums are also places to exchange friendship you try to upbuild motivation and not to tear down.I just see too much negativism in your respond.
Granted there are always two ways to tell a person the truth.One is to say:"Will,your tropical trees are just crap,don't loose any more time on it."Or you say:"Will,nice starter material.With a little more work into this or that direction (scetches,virts etc) the trees will look even nicer."Both mean basically the same,but in the second version you leave it up to the other individual to "see" according to one's own pace.In the end a gradual education is much more healthier.
I have noticed that brutal truth and little sidekicks on some forums make the quota,but I have to disagree.A parent with love and patience will always achieve higher and firmer ethical and educational standards for the child rather than a parent with negativism and impatience.
Just my two lira..
-dorothy
Anonymous User
Banned
Dorthy,
Consider where I am a editor and moderator at and weigh my response accordingly. While you are at it, please show me where I was not polite. Too many people confuse stating truths as being rude, this is as far from the truth as one can get. We do no beginner good by encouraging that which should be discouraged. I personally think that coloring the truth is rude.
The advice I gave bigbill was, "Try and keep the tree alive, do nothing else for now, let it recover, it needs massive growth, let it grow, don't trim it, don't wire it, just let it grow. After a year or so, if it lives, then start practicing pinching, pruning, wiring, slowly, watch how the species reacts, learn.
Meanwhile, pick up a couple different species, maybe a couple more of these, try and find interesting trunks with old looking bark and movement, compare six side by side before buying and pick the one whose trunks looks the oldest and has visible surface roots, and rough bark....
Bonsai is about tomorrow, care taken selecting trees today will bring the tomorrows much closer."
I stand by this advice, it is truthful and honest, it also shows a path for learning without styling a piece of stock that is A) too newly potted to do so, 2) by his own admission, not healthy enough to do so, and 3) has not got the growth needed to make such decisions.
Bigbill, asked for and received some opinions, some of which were not what he wanted to hear. In response he started the disenchanted thread basically complaining about the advice he received. This was not proper and it is my personal opinion that he owes this forum an apology. When you post something and ask for opinions, you're going to get all opinions, some will not agree with your own world view, but they are as valuable, if not more so, than those that do.
The truth is this is substandard stock, period. It does not mean he can not work on it, it does not mean that he can't grow it, it does not mean that he can't eventually style it and maybe even make a half way decent bonsai out of it in 5 or 10 years. But it is poor stock.
So what, we all most likely have some, I do, hell I have a field full of pines that would be considered poor stock now. The difference is that he asked for advice on it, he got it. If you can't take the opinions, don't ask for them. When you get them, don't complain about them.
There are forums out there where he would have got high praise for this piece, he may even have been asked for advice on how to accomplish what he has. He would have learned nothing, but hey, he would have felt good.
Is this a "feel good" forum? I would rather "feel good" when experience peers tell me I am on the right track, there are experience people here, please do not silence them buy insisting that only the positives about a piece be discussed.
At our club show this week William Valavanis was there and he judged our show, I had six trees entered. None of the ones I thought were my best work placed, in fact one I particularly liked was picked up by William, his critique of that tree was short and simple, "The pot is better than the tree." Was I disenchanted? No, not at all, I laughed, because he was right, I took what he said to heart and now I am determined to improve that tree. Another tree, the semi cascade ficus in the scoop pot I have posted here before, took first place in my class, while what I believe was a better ficus did not place. Was I disenchanted? No, I took his critiques to heart, I listened to his words, and I made notes. Why? Because William is vastly experienced, he is talented, and he has studied with some of the best artists in the world. My trees will become better because of his critiques, I am honored to have had the opportunity to have my trees judged by such experience. I "feel good" about that win, I "feel fortunate" about learning how to improve the others.
All that being said, this forum has a vast amount of combined experience, Big bill should maybe listen to what is being said instead of complaining about it. Take it to heart or not, either way, listen and weigh it. Chances are sometime in the future you will stumble across this thread again and realize that they were right.
Will
P.S.
Dorothy, Cascade? Who are you huiding from?
Consider where I am a editor and moderator at and weigh my response accordingly. While you are at it, please show me where I was not polite. Too many people confuse stating truths as being rude, this is as far from the truth as one can get. We do no beginner good by encouraging that which should be discouraged. I personally think that coloring the truth is rude.
The advice I gave bigbill was, "Try and keep the tree alive, do nothing else for now, let it recover, it needs massive growth, let it grow, don't trim it, don't wire it, just let it grow. After a year or so, if it lives, then start practicing pinching, pruning, wiring, slowly, watch how the species reacts, learn.
Meanwhile, pick up a couple different species, maybe a couple more of these, try and find interesting trunks with old looking bark and movement, compare six side by side before buying and pick the one whose trunks looks the oldest and has visible surface roots, and rough bark....
Bonsai is about tomorrow, care taken selecting trees today will bring the tomorrows much closer."
I stand by this advice, it is truthful and honest, it also shows a path for learning without styling a piece of stock that is A) too newly potted to do so, 2) by his own admission, not healthy enough to do so, and 3) has not got the growth needed to make such decisions.
Bigbill, asked for and received some opinions, some of which were not what he wanted to hear. In response he started the disenchanted thread basically complaining about the advice he received. This was not proper and it is my personal opinion that he owes this forum an apology. When you post something and ask for opinions, you're going to get all opinions, some will not agree with your own world view, but they are as valuable, if not more so, than those that do.
The truth is this is substandard stock, period. It does not mean he can not work on it, it does not mean that he can't grow it, it does not mean that he can't eventually style it and maybe even make a half way decent bonsai out of it in 5 or 10 years. But it is poor stock.
So what, we all most likely have some, I do, hell I have a field full of pines that would be considered poor stock now. The difference is that he asked for advice on it, he got it. If you can't take the opinions, don't ask for them. When you get them, don't complain about them.
There are forums out there where he would have got high praise for this piece, he may even have been asked for advice on how to accomplish what he has. He would have learned nothing, but hey, he would have felt good.
Is this a "feel good" forum? I would rather "feel good" when experience peers tell me I am on the right track, there are experience people here, please do not silence them buy insisting that only the positives about a piece be discussed.
At our club show this week William Valavanis was there and he judged our show, I had six trees entered. None of the ones I thought were my best work placed, in fact one I particularly liked was picked up by William, his critique of that tree was short and simple, "The pot is better than the tree." Was I disenchanted? No, not at all, I laughed, because he was right, I took what he said to heart and now I am determined to improve that tree. Another tree, the semi cascade ficus in the scoop pot I have posted here before, took first place in my class, while what I believe was a better ficus did not place. Was I disenchanted? No, I took his critiques to heart, I listened to his words, and I made notes. Why? Because William is vastly experienced, he is talented, and he has studied with some of the best artists in the world. My trees will become better because of his critiques, I am honored to have had the opportunity to have my trees judged by such experience. I "feel good" about that win, I "feel fortunate" about learning how to improve the others.
All that being said, this forum has a vast amount of combined experience, Big bill should maybe listen to what is being said instead of complaining about it. Take it to heart or not, either way, listen and weigh it. Chances are sometime in the future you will stumble across this thread again and realize that they were right.
Will
P.S.
Dorothy, Cascade? Who are you huiding from?
cascade
Shohin
$ 1.00 Nana
Will,
I posted under the "$1.00 Nana" thread,not under the "Disenchantment" thread.I am very aware of the fact that the brick hard way of bonsai can be full of disappointment (tree dies,disaster bugs strike etc)and thus disenchantment.
If someone strive's for professionalism and success,I absolutely share the common practice of telling the truth.Truth in bonsai can be very relative to one's own perception as it can not always be stated as fact.Otherwise bonsai would not be an artform.One's masterpiece can be someone elses discard in the worst case.But we all now that.We also know that some bonsaiists simply enjoy the novice level and will never leave it,similar like some people never leave their hometown.. Nothing wrong with that.
What I did not like about your post is using the word 'lying'.
Nobody is lying about poor stock or the fact that time will be of the essence to successfully induce the suggested designs.Yrene pointed it out and most of us agreed.But to imply we were 'lying' is hard to comprehend for me.If this was not meant as it sounded you might consider to rephrase or explain it to me please.
-dorothy
"cascade" = I am not 'huiding' from anything,just promoting my favorite style in bonsai..
Will,
I posted under the "$1.00 Nana" thread,not under the "Disenchantment" thread.I am very aware of the fact that the brick hard way of bonsai can be full of disappointment (tree dies,disaster bugs strike etc)and thus disenchantment.
If someone strive's for professionalism and success,I absolutely share the common practice of telling the truth.Truth in bonsai can be very relative to one's own perception as it can not always be stated as fact.Otherwise bonsai would not be an artform.One's masterpiece can be someone elses discard in the worst case.But we all now that.We also know that some bonsaiists simply enjoy the novice level and will never leave it,similar like some people never leave their hometown..
Nothing wrong with that.What I did not like about your post is using the word 'lying'.
Nobody is lying about poor stock or the fact that time will be of the essence to successfully induce the suggested designs.Yrene pointed it out and most of us agreed.But to imply we were 'lying' is hard to comprehend for me.If this was not meant as it sounded you might consider to rephrase or explain it to me please.-dorothy
"cascade" = I am not 'huiding' from anything,just promoting my favorite style in bonsai..
cascade
Shohin
Sorry for misspelling your name:Irene,not Yrene..
-dorothy
-dorothy
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AlainK
Imperial Masterpiece
“Truth can be stated in a thousand different ways, yet each one can be true.” (Vivekananda)
I'll have the pleasure to read your opinions, and maybe catch a glimpse of "a" truth, on other threads...
I'll have the pleasure to read your opinions, and maybe catch a glimpse of "a" truth, on other threads...
Anonymous User
Banned
Irene,
Again, please show me where I was rude, negative, or discouraging.
Dorothy,
I'm sorry did I say anyone lied or was I talking in generalities?
For the record, I started bonsai seriously about three years ago. My on-line teeth were cut on advice from such straight shooters as Carl Bergstrom (Old Mister Crow), Al Keppler, Andy Rutledge, and Walter Pall, none of which have ever been accused of pampering a newcomer. Three years. So have I accomplished the little I have because of the straight, brutal truth or in spite of it? Does it matter?
The bottom line is I have as much right to voice my opinion as others do here. I did so politely and with the best intentions.
Will
Again, please show me where I was rude, negative, or discouraging.
Dorothy,
I'm sorry did I say anyone lied or was I talking in generalities?
For the record, I started bonsai seriously about three years ago. My on-line teeth were cut on advice from such straight shooters as Carl Bergstrom (Old Mister Crow), Al Keppler, Andy Rutledge, and Walter Pall, none of which have ever been accused of pampering a newcomer. Three years. So have I accomplished the little I have because of the straight, brutal truth or in spite of it? Does it matter?
The bottom line is I have as much right to voice my opinion as others do here. I did so politely and with the best intentions.
Will
LOL Nicer than a lot of the names I have been called over the years. And yes I earned every title
.Some took more work than others
Irene
Will,
You are coming off as a superior condensending pompus ass.
Well, well, well....
The road to hell was paved with the best intentions, but you can think before you post in such a negative manner! And no I never said to sugar coat the shyt either but you can sure be a lot nicer and choose your words better.
You and I have had many discussions and this is just not the real you that I have come to know!
Irene
You are coming off as a superior condensending pompus ass.
Well, well, well....
The road to hell was paved with the best intentions, but you can think before you post in such a negative manner! And no I never said to sugar coat the shyt either but you can sure be a lot nicer and choose your words better.
You and I have had many discussions and this is just not the real you that I have come to know!
Irene
