Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
Let's hear it. Don't keep it to yourself now that you have spoken.
Got 12K?
- Thread starter rockm
- Start date
jeremy_norbury
Omono
Oh no, I've learnt this lesson and stopped doing it.I only buy trees if they're half-dead on a sale in a garden center
On sale
Half-dead
ajm55555
Chumono
- Messages
- 693
- Reaction score
- 570
- USDA Zone
- 7b
They could have priced it $12.500 with FREE shipping.
Paradox
Imperial Masterpiece
I love scots pines they are easily my favorite.
If I could afford a tree in this price range, this would also not be my pick. Not sold on the weeping nature of the design.
Rockm is correct in the adaptable ability of scots pines to the east coast. I've 2 in my collection and I have never had issues with fungus with either of them, where I have had fungus on mugos and JPB *knocks on wood*
If I could afford a tree in this price range, this would also not be my pick. Not sold on the weeping nature of the design.
Rockm is correct in the adaptable ability of scots pines to the east coast. I've 2 in my collection and I have never had issues with fungus with either of them, where I have had fungus on mugos and JPB *knocks on wood*
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
I think calling a style that has been practiced in Europe for 20 years "avant-garde" and "innovative" then either I don't understand what these terms mean, or Team Mirai doesn't.
I believe Walter Pall should get some credits for doing this style and taking all the crap for it back when.
casun
Mame
A separate shipping fee allows someone to make their own shipping arrangements and not pay the “included” shipping.
If someone is dishing out 12k for a twig, they wont be making their own shipping arrangements
ajm55555
Chumono
- Messages
- 693
- Reaction score
- 570
- USDA Zone
- 7b
Any shipping arrangements are included in $12K unless you're shipping a ship.
casun
Mame
If I was local, I might pick it up myself.If someone is dishing out 12k for a twig, they wont be making their own shipping arrangements
IzzyG
Shohin
If someone is dishing out 12k for a twig, they wont be making their own shipping arrangements
What makes you think this?
Cajunrider
Imperial Masterpiece
I am thinking the other way. When a person is particular enough to buy trees at high cost and high caliber, that person is more likely to want the tree to be transported in a particular manner.If someone is dishing out 12k for a twig, they wont be making their own shipping arrangements
tigerscott79
Mame
True, but on flip side even inanimate things can be destroyed , ruied , ans lost day after buying . Sadly nothing is guaranteed in life other then our death and decomposition (sorry if morbid or silly to reply this) but I also agree , spending any amount of money on somthing living the person better have knowledge and ability to keep it so. I've seen people buy rare animals or plants only to kill them for lack knowledge and sadly desire to want or own rarely equates to ability to care for them. Crazy. I do think treetops nice but ascetics are subjective also.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
I do not understand why you would think this. Looks like a mature, collected specimen to me. The sudden transition is where prossibly a sidebranch or even the main trunk was originally cut off.
This I can relate too. I agree with @Wires_Guy_wires that this reflects the way @Walter Pall over the years has been pushing the envelope towards more tree-like bonsai and less overstyles trees. However, to me this tree feels that it might have passed the mark, and is not so consciously non-pad based, that it does not relfect a natural tree anymore. Mature pines tend to have the foliage somewhat clustered. But this might be a maturity-as-bonsai thing where over time this comes together more.
To me, this is a tree out of my range financially. Trying to get my head around the prices in the more upper range trees I like to compare trees. Take for instance this also reasonable japanese white pine for sale near me. At 2470E is is roughly one fifth of the price. The trunk is a LOT less interesting, and to some the lowest brinch might be out of place. But besides that, to me it feels a lot more mature as bonsai (Yet I do not really like the helmet-uniformity of the crown).
It woudl be really great to hear people at that level of styling (Bjorn, Ryan) discuss tree-value and how to get at a specific price. Sometimes it feels random, but for sure they have reasons why one tree is prices at a much higher point than others.
Colorado
Masterpiece
Well, I would think this because it specifically says so in the listing: “ Carefully grafted, this unique weeping Scots pine captivates with a remarkably clean and beautiful graft union.”
So, no, it is not a collected specimen. It is also obvious that it’s grafted from the photos.
Major difference in what i’m willing to spend and what I can affordThese threads seem to gain more traction and interest than the educational/styling videos, which is odd really.
It's human nature though, people just love to have a moan about what they can't afford
TrevorLarsen
Shohin
I think it’s very helpful and useful for people to get an idea what trees are worth. I don’t think it’s just enjoying seeing things we can’t buy. For me it’s setting the parameters on what trees are sold for.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
Some unkind things have been said here about this pine, and I have to say that it stings a bit. I wonder at the variety of feelings that prompt these statements and know that some denigrate things in general that they cannot afford. Admittedly though, some of the statements here are well reasoned and therefore sound to the observer.
Personally, I find this tree highly desirable from several standpoints. Scots pine is my favorite pine to work with, though I admit my design and care skills for pines are lacking. I have not managed to kill a Scots pine, ever. I have one that is 35 years old that was decimated by sawfly larvae some years ago, but it was my negligence that allowed for this. I have been thinking about my Scots a lot the past 2 years and it is due for a redesign this spring. But back to the tree that is the subject of this discussion, I am also a sucker for weeping trees and have several in my landscape.
I am thankful that this pine is on the west coast, because if it was close by, I would be making and offer on it in the $10,000 range. Hiding this would not be good for my conscience or my marriage.
Personally, I find this tree highly desirable from several standpoints. Scots pine is my favorite pine to work with, though I admit my design and care skills for pines are lacking. I have not managed to kill a Scots pine, ever. I have one that is 35 years old that was decimated by sawfly larvae some years ago, but it was my negligence that allowed for this. I have been thinking about my Scots a lot the past 2 years and it is due for a redesign this spring. But back to the tree that is the subject of this discussion, I am also a sucker for weeping trees and have several in my landscape.
I am thankful that this pine is on the west coast, because if it was close by, I would be making and offer on it in the $10,000 range. Hiding this would not be good for my conscience or my marriage.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Colorado
Masterpiece
I can only speak for myself, but to me the bad taste in my mouth from this tree isn’t the tree itself. It is from the pricing and the “sales pitch.” I don’t think there would be much, if any, backlash if the tree was priced at $1,000, for example.
It just seems odd to me that the tree was purchased from a nursery for a couple hundred bucks, repotted into a Horst pot, branches wired down into a general bonsai shape and then it is declared an “avant garde” masterpiece.
For what it’s worth, I don’t have any problem with the price point itself. Mirai has posted many trees for sale in this price range that seemed to be appropriately-priced.
This one just seems….like a stretch. Just my 2 cents.
IzzyG
Shohin
Having bought a handful of trees from both (and other artists), I’ve had multiple discussions with them in regards to how some of these pricing structures are put together. There’s definitely a portion of it being “objective” and a portion being “subjective”. Off the top of my head, these are some of them(please note that each point is a discussion on its own):
1: Size. Much like many things in life, the larger the tree, the higher the price. Are some shohin sized trees worth more than 24” ones? Sure. But in general, larger trees go for more.
2: Raw material costs. Much like any business, the cost of goods(in this case the raw tree from collectors and growers) determine the price of the final product. However, other expenses such as business expenses also play a part in it. A hobbyist that does it for fun and self collected material, without infrastructural expenses will probably not ask as much as the business who has staff, suppliers, etc. to pay.
3: Species. There’s definitely certain species that command a premium. One that comes to mind are piñon pines(due to their low survival rate). Ungrafted white pines are another example.
4: Physical features such as gradual taper, movement, trunk size, number of live veins(junipers), deadwood features, etc. (most of us know the usual list of desirable physical/aesthetic traits).
5: Provenance. Previous owners, artists who have worked on the tree, awards won, featured tree, etc. Yep, they add value.
6: Relative pricing. The market will bear the price that it will bear. We’ve all seen yamadori pricing climb over the years(I’ve even noticed it in the last 18 months) and if collector A is able to command a very high price, it’ll undeniably encourage collector B, C, D, etc. to raise prices.
7: Time invested/how far along is the tree’s development. This is self explanatory.
8: Styling. Some styling are just obviously well executed and adds value to the tree. Others, not so much.
9: Owner’s subjectivity. Some trees are just special to the owner and they’ll put out a “I don’t want to sell it but will at this price”.
Now, does all of the above justify a tree’s price to an individual? Well that’s up to the individual. Personally I feel like I have a good grasp on raw yamadori and finished conifers prices in the US(as far as averages and justification). However, there’s definitely times where a tree is just commanding too high of a price. It could be “justifiable”(the raw tree was overpaid, the development took longer than anticipated) but that doesn’t mean that the market will bear the price.
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