Is bonsai art and are you the artist ?

[hinmo24t]

I think this argument is a load of crap. Art isn't a competition. Art is fundamentally an emergent expression of our creative agency as sentient beings. I hope we all succeed at following that inner drive to create art. Calling someone an artist takes absolutely nothing away from anyone else whatsoever. Using the term "artist" isn't a value judgment. It's simply a description indicating that a person makes art. Doesn't matter if their art is any "good" in your opinion. It's still art and they're still an artist for having made it. Art isn't a zero-sum game. There's no quota. We don't take away someone else's ability to make art if we call this person here an artist. I find your assertion that this state of affairs is somehow equivalent to awarding participation trophies just for showing up to be an ugly, snobbish smear against people who've done nothing to you, except perhaps to arouse some latent insecurities that you would be well-served to recognize in yourself and work on getting over. Fortunately, there's a really good book on the topic called, Art & Fear: Observations On The Perils (and Rewards) of Artmaking by David Bayles and Ted Orland. It's quite inexpensive, a quick read, and really one of the more thoughtful books I've read on the topic of making art. By the way, the title "artist" isn't a participation trophy. Everyone who holds that title earned it, by making art.

If you're looking for objectivity in art, you've lost the plot. There is none to be found. Art is art regardless of whether or not there's anyone else besides the artist around to give a damn about it or not. Markets don't define what is or isn't art (thank goodness!), nor do they define what art is good or bad. Economics is an afterthought. Art existed before there were markets. I would still be making art even if a zombie apocalypse wiped out civilization in its entirety and I was the last man on earth. If the reason why somebody is making art is "for the money", I hate to break it to them, but they're a counterexample to the economic notion that markets are supposed to be rational, lol. The opportunity cost of art relative to the productive economic activities that person could be doing with their time instead.... it's not even a close call.

Your argument about free access to college is also garbage, but I'm not going to take the bait for a political discussion. That's off topic for this site. All I'll say is, you do realize that colleges don't just give people degrees for showing up, don't you? You have to actually learn things, do homework, pass tests, etc. in order to graduate.

I already said art is universally subjective, but if you want to make anything of it or judge it there has to be objective criteria. Free market principles. Otherwise, sure, everything is art and wonderful and equal. The analysis had to do with competition and how it brings out quality and value, which are measurable.

All good

 

[hinmo24t]

I consider bonsai art as well, in some cases. Not mine lol

It sounds like your answer to the ops question and any effort of creativeness or modification is considered art, which is fine and I respect it. I don't though, it's subjective

 

[hinmo24t]

Also, @Lorax7 thanks for calling me an artist though. Kind of new to hear. Truth is id prefer not to be called one, not yet, but thanks anyway. I'd rather earn that title. Being an artist aside from few exceptions (amongst the massive sample size who consider themselves artists, probably far less than one in a hundred) isn't a positive attribute in my book, rather a weak demographic. More like an excuse for something, painted with a broad brush.

I do appreciate people who are happy and entertained with hobbies, enjoy them myself, but don't try telling me you're special that easily, or that I should be impressed with what you do. I'm happy for you, but I don't just call anyone an artist. And I'd rather have people contribute more to a team than just art. It seems selfish to me and obnoxious a lot of the time, think we'd be better off with less of it to be honest. I'd be nice about it, but really find it to be a 'load of crap' as you phrased, unless you contribute more than your art to the scene or really differentiate with your talents. Bring more to the table and prove it.

There's a person on here who I think brings great quality forward and does that with their small pots as an example. I'll consider them an artist, and a bunch of others on here too. But not everyone, including myself

 

[Lorax7]

I already said art is universally subjective, but if you want to make anything of it or judge it there has to be objective criteria. Free market principles. Otherwise, sure, everything is art and wonderful and equal. The analysis had to do with competition and how it brings out quality and value, which are measurable.

All good

That's still nonsense though.

Art isn't judged by free market principles. Who decides what art is accepted into a local juried art show? A panel of artists. Who decides what art gets shown in a museum? Not economists, not collectors, not the auctioneers at Sotheby's, not Wall Street, not venture capitalists. Curators decide what the museum accepts into its collection, what gets displayed, and when. Artists work with curators to decide how the art will be arranged for display. Art critics visit the show and write about it. That criticism fuels lively dialogue between artists, curators, and critics about the merits and flaws of the art.

One artist agrees with most of what the critic said but thinks he/she/they can do better by building on what's there but taking this one aspect and going in a new direction with it to make something different. They go to their studio and make that. Another artist thinks the critic is full of shit and decides to make an artwork that demonstrates just how wrong the critic was about X, Y, Z. Goes to their studio and makes that work, adding a little twist Q to the work that happened to occur to them while they were working "in the zone" and had a flash of insight. Yet another artist started daydreaming during the conversation, had an idea pop into their head, and went off to their studio to make art whatever art they found satisfying to make. All that new work goes into a gallery and is seen and discussed, etc., etc., endless loop.

Collectors go to gallery shows, museum exhibits, curator and artist lectures. They take notes about what they learn from these other people, the ones who actually know what's up and understand both the big picture and the details of what's happening in the art world. They consult with gallerists and others immersed in the art world and take advice from those people on what art they ought to buy. The art world, comprised of the artists, curators, gallerists, and critics are the ones who actually drive the value judgments about what art is "good". The market, at least at the high end, is mostly just reacting to the value judgments of art professionals and selecting what they want to invest in from among the menu of artworks that they've been told have merit.

 

[Lorax7]

I do appreciate people who are happy and entertained with hobbies, enjoy them myself, but don't try telling me you're special that easily, or that I should be impressed with what you do. I'm happy for you, but I don't just call anyone an artist. And I'd rather have people contribute more to a team than just art. It seems selfish to me and obnoxious a lot of the time, think we'd be better off with less of it to be honest. I'd be nice about it, but really find it to be a 'load of crap' as you phrased, unless you contribute more than your art to the scene or really differentiate with your talents. Bring more to the table and prove it.

Fortunately, I don't need your validation.

 

[hinmo24t]

That's still nonsense though.

Art isn't judged by free market principles. Who decides what art is accepted into a local juried art show? A panel of artists. Who decides what art gets shown in a museum? Not economists, not collectors, not the auctioneers at Sotheby's, not Wall Street, not venture capitalists. Curators decide what the museum accepts into its collection, what gets displayed, and when. Artists work with curators to decide how the art will be arranged for display. Art critics visit the show and write about it. That criticism fuels lively dialogue between artists, curators, and critics about the merits and flaws of the art.

One artist agrees with most of what the critic said but thinks he/she/they can do better by building on what's there but taking this one aspect and going in a new direction with it to make something different. They go to their studio and make that. Another artist thinks the critic is full of shit and decides to make an artwork that demonstrates just how wrong the critic was about X, Y, Z. Goes to their studio and makes that work, adding a little twist Q to the work that happened to occur to them while they were working "in the zone" and had a flash of insight. Yet another artist started daydreaming during the conversation, had an idea pop into their head, and went off to their studio to make art whatever art they found satisfying to make. All that new work goes into a gallery and is seen and discussed, etc., etc., endless loop.

Collectors go to gallery shows, museum exhibits, curator and artist lectures. They take notes about what they learn from these other people, the ones who actually know what's up and understand both the big picture and the details of what's happening in the art world. They consult with gallerists and others immersed in the art world and take advice from those people on what art they ought to buy. The art world, comprised of the artists, curators, gallerists, and critics are the ones who actually drive the value judgments about what art is "good". The market, at least at the high end, is mostly just reacting to the value judgments of art professionals and selecting what they want to invest in from among the menu of artworks that they've been told have merit.

All of that has to come with layers of criteria, not people who just say, that's the winner. There are lots of way to measure the quality in those channels, it isnt just because. Skills, measurable skills like I remember you mentioning about Kincade and Peter Chan, from lessons derived from metrics in courses you took??

And per my above post, I'd rather not be associated with the demographic of artists and I'm not afriad to say it, has to be earned from the 'eye$' others, or its cheap in my opinion and I don't want that. Hobbies and crafts and expression, sure, if it's on the side. I'm a hobbyist and think they're great. Give everyone a participation trophy art title if you want to, but I'm handing mine back. I'd rather earn a dollar than be given two.

 

[hinmo24t]

Fortunately, I don't need your validation.

Fair enough and I respect that, but don't call me an artist please. Soft

 

[Lorax7]

Also, @Lorax7 thanks for calling me an artist though. Kind of new to hear. Truth is id prefer not to be called one, not yet, but thanks anyway .

I didn’t call you an artist. So, no worries.

 

[ABCarve]

Science = Observation. Art = Expressing what we observe. Politics = How we discuss the value of the former.

 

[hinmo24t]

I didn’t call you an artist. So, no worries.

you did by your underlying standpoint, but like i said, all good

i hope people dont get the wrong picture with what i bring forward sometimes,
i know its probably easy and acceptable these days to just censor something they dont want to hear or see
but im not trying to hurt anyone, just have a thorough discussion. i have a lifelong reputation for being
a solid character, but find it cheap and a liability that so many lack critical thinking and are judgement these days.
a lot of what i say applies to a much larger picture and life, even though its relative to the point of this thread too.

if you want to label everything the same, deserves-equal, art, acceptable, etc. then fine.
it feels good, i understand that, but life renders it out. essentially it doesnt get anyone anywhere
in the long run, which muddles out a larger context eventually, eventually a person or group will have the break away from it
and make a stand thats backed up on themselves, not others

if im trying to make points on Critical Thinking (a formal subject and more a part of your life than you might know)

The ultimate goal of critically thinking is to solve problems or make decisions. This is achieved by mentally processing information in a clear, logical, reasoned, and reflective manner so you can understand things better.

i have taken courses on it as part of my degree and use it on a daily basis

dont mean to hurt you with my examples, or trigger you into assuming or labeling me as political or something.
economics, sociology, statistics, critical thinking (objectivity vs subjectivity) could be cheaply assumed as 'political' to write someone off
and make you feel better by disengaging with them. similar to labelling some a terrible thing like racist, just because their opinion
differs from yours. its wrong in most cases, and only hurting you by thinking so. some things are pointy like that, but not usually

i choose to think critically, back up statements usually with some lack of impartiality, such as defining an artist (while acknowledging 'what is art?' is very much subjective to begin with, but that is not powerful per definition in itself). it stings a bit for some to digest, but thats not my fault. throw it back at me, its appreciated and makes someone grow. i wont hurt you blanketly or out of no where unless it came at me first, in a thin manner

good convo and topic and theres no correct answer to it, just convincing or not convincing in my opinion

just didnt want to be written off hopefully as something im not, but do what you want lol


little character background
***** was the misfit of high school hockey, an extremely gifted skater and stickhandler who put a greater priority on his camaraderie with ORR/Fairhaven teammates than he did his own playing career. His trademark swooping skating style and the puck sticking to his heavily taped wooden stick is a delightful image ORR hockey will never see again. “He’s talented enough to play somewhere else, but he stuck around to play with his buddies,” said coach *******, recalling how his center standout recruited four or five classmates to try out for the team. During a trying senior season, Hinman managed 8-14-22 totals until injuries forced him to playing out the season at defense. “As good a hockey player as he is, he’s a better person,” said Hiller.

from recently, i helped a disabled woman get up and to a vehicle parked pretty far away and she sent this to someone i know
and they shared it with me via email

Hi *****,
*** is such a nice young man. He was so kind and gentle.
He made my day.
You do so much for me.
Love you.
****

recipient of Blue Chip award for befriending the disabled and helping them get a job after highschool too


so i do have a heart - but i refuse mediocrity or pure emotion
scary how quick people write others off, label or ignore things they dont agree with as
mean, political, racist; takes away from real examples of that and doesnt get you anywhere, says a lot about a person
i believe

time to balance company checking account and look into formal training for some field guys,
have a nice Wednesday

TPL, taxpayer life, good living - dignifying

 

[AlainK]

Nobody's going to spend any money on Paul McCarthy's NSFW "Tree" sculpture in Paris either. Still art though.

Er...
No, it isn't.
It's business.

 

[AlainK]

It's business.

I mean, it's like buying rice in California when Norton 1st was emperor, speculation : it's not the real value of things, it's how much you can swindle people into making them pay more.

This, or that artist does somthing different : invest ! Invest in bullshit, whatever, as soon as other imbeciles can make the stakes higher, money, money; money...

Marcel Duchamp was a real artist, he invinted a point of view, not like Jeff Koons that copies what the imbeciles think is "awesome".

We like "nature" here?...

So, yes, there are/were/will always be artists, not only pissed artists that can make money, not art.

Christo : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christo_and_Jeanne-Claude

Nils Udo : https://www.nils-udo.com/?lang=fr

And many others...

 

[Lorax7]

Er...
No, it isn't.
It's business.

It's not entirely clear to me which point you're arguing against, my assertion that nobody's going to buy it or the assertion that it's still art, even if it might not be good art. If you're arguing against the first one, well, nobody's going to buy it because it was destroyed by vandals shortly after it was installed and McCarthy opted not to repair or recreate it. If you're arguing that it's not art, I would just point out that the artist clearly intended to create certain emotional responses (surprise, laughter, confusion, disgust) in his audience and was successful in evoking those responses in many of those viewers with this work. There are representational elements to the work (i.e. it's actually a balloon that's been named by the artist to invoke the concept of a tree but that most adult viewers would recognize as being in the shape of a sex toy). I would call that art, even though I don't think it's particularly good art. I prefer art with a bit more ambiguity and deeper layers of meaning, something that I can look at time and time again and keep finding new things to see in it.

 

[Lorax7]

you did by your underlying standpoint, but like i said, all good

i hope people dont get the wrong picture with what i bring forward sometimes,
i know its probably easy and acceptable these days to just censor something they dont want to hear or see
but im not trying to hurt anyone, just have a thorough discussion. i have a lifelong reputation for being
a solid character, but find it cheap and a liability that so many lack critical thinking and are judgement these days.
a lot of what i say applies to a much larger picture and life, even though its relative to the point of this thread too.

if you want to label everything the same, deserves-equal, art, acceptable, etc. then fine.
it feels good, i understand that, but life renders it out. essentially it doesnt get anyone anywhere
in the long run, which muddles out a larger context eventually, eventually a person or group will have the break away from it
and make a stand thats backed up on themselves, not others

if im trying to make points on Critical Thinking (a formal subject and more a part of your life than you might know)

The ultimate goal of critically thinking is to solve problems or make decisions. This is achieved by mentally processing information in a clear, logical, reasoned, and reflective manner so you can understand things better.

i have taken courses on it as part of my degree and use it on a daily basis

dont mean to hurt you with my examples, or trigger you into assuming or labeling me as political or something.
economics, sociology, statistics, critical thinking (objectivity vs subjectivity) could be cheaply assumed as 'political' to write someone off
and make you feel better by disengaging with them. similar to labelling some a terrible thing like racist, just because their opinion
differs from yours. its wrong in most cases, and only hurting you by thinking so. some things are pointy like that, but not usually

i choose to think critically, back up statements usually with some lack of impartiality, such as defining an artist (while acknowledging 'what is art?' is very much subjective to begin with, but that is not powerful per definition in itself). it stings a bit for some to digest, but thats not my fault. throw it back at me, its appreciated and makes someone grow. i wont hurt you blanketly or out of no where unless it came at me first, in a thin manner

good convo and topic and theres no correct answer to it, just convincing or not convincing in my opinion

just didnt want to be written off hopefully as something im not, but do what you want lol


little character background
***** was the misfit of high school hockey, an extremely gifted skater and stickhandler who put a greater priority on his camaraderie with ORR/Fairhaven teammates than he did his own playing career. His trademark swooping skating style and the puck sticking to his heavily taped wooden stick is a delightful image ORR hockey will never see again. “He’s talented enough to play somewhere else, but he stuck around to play with his buddies,” said coach *******, recalling how his center standout recruited four or five classmates to try out for the team. During a trying senior season, Hinman managed 8-14-22 totals until injuries forced him to playing out the season at defense. “As good a hockey player as he is, he’s a better person,” said Hiller.

from recently, i helped a disabled woman get up and to a vehicle parked pretty far away and she sent this to someone i know
and they shared it with me via email

Hi *****,
*** is such a nice young man. He was so kind and gentle.
He made my day.
You do so much for me.
Love you.
****

recipient of Blue Chip award for befriending the disabled and helping them get a job after highschool too


so i do have a heart - but i refuse mediocrity or pure emotion
scary how quick people write others off, label or ignore things they dont agree with as
mean, political, racist; takes away from real examples of that and doesnt get you anywhere, says a lot about a person
i believe

time to balance company checking account and look into formal training for some field guys,
have a nice Wednesday

TPL, taxpayer life, good living - dignifying

I feel sorry for you. It must be very difficult to go through life with the burden of such deep insecurity, a fragile ego that needs to constantly be hidden behind a wall of grandiosity in order to protect it from shattering, and the anxiety of a persecution complex. Take care. Be kind to yourself.

 

[hinmo24t]

I feel sorry for you. It must be very difficult to go through life with the burden of such deep insecurity, a fragile ego that needs to constantly be hidden behind a wall of grandiosity in order to protect it from shattering, and the anxiety of a persecution complex. Take care. Be kind to yourself.

Will do, bud. Enjoy your buttplug art

 

[AlainK]

McCarthy opted not to repair or recreate it.

He was paid for it, no loss for the "artist".

I was sad to see it was destroyed by religious fanatics, but frankly, it could have stayed and be ignored by a vast majority of people, like a turd that you take care not to step on. Because it was a very selfish fantasy, why should the rest of the people, adults and kids, like it, as if we all had the same fantasies ?...

To me, "art" is always political. The "message" there was intended to a small clique of "bobos".

"Art" should speak to the masses, not only to the ones that fantasize, or come on an anal plug. Why not, "all tastes are in nature" as we say, so if it can please 5% of the population, why not.

To me, this is "Art" :

 

[amcoffeegirl]

I did my own soul searching a few years ago and this was my answer:
According to Langholm, bonsai is part art, part craft, part horticulture, and part philosophy. It’s sometimes described as a collaboration between man and nature, but at its core it is about imagining how a tree might grow in the wild and interpreting that vision in miniature. Or, as he puts it, “Bonsai is supposed to take you to the place where that tree was growing without you having to actually go there.”

I did email him back then and we exchanged a couple of emails. I was thankful to find his words just when I needed them.

Bonsaiville

bonsaiville.co.nz

 

[AlainK]

PS : if you like, I can wait until tomorrow morning, and paint "it" green, or whatever colour is the fashion. And sell it for $137,456.

 

[amcoffeegirl]

Also I think it would be an insult to look at your teachers tree and not see the “art” in it.
Not all trees are Penelope-
But:
When you look at a picture of a bonsai, or view one in an exhibit, you only see “now”, or “After”. But the essence of bonsai, the wonder of bonsai, the satisfaction of bonsai, is only appreciated in the “before” ! The time between the “before” & the “After” is a journey to be savored!

I don’t recall where I got these words but they were special enough to me to save them in my notes. Possibly- Ed Trout???- maybe Bill V.????

 

[Njyamadori]

I made my first painting today inspired from a drawing I did . Trying to be more creative for bonsai so why not study art !