WHY did I end up with a SCOTS pine?

[Mike Corazzi]

I mean how, after picking out a tree some 15 years ago in an old nursery with no idea what the hell it was, did it end up being a SINGLE FLUSH ....Scots?

Then after giving it away and the recipient letting the FLOWER POT tip over and make exposed roots, how come when I found out was it a SCOTS pine?
Aaagh!

Now look at this article. I did.

https://crataegus.com/2016/04/14/big-difference-between-decandling-and-breaking-pine-shoots/

And I'm as confused as usual when it comes to THIS tree.

(please ignore the brown tips of the needles as it's the result of my COOKING the roots last summer THINKING that...SCOTS...pine would appreciate trillion degree ALL DAY sun to ...."strengthen" it.)
Oh, it is WAY better than last fall when the needles were gray and DROOPING!

So..... now to "decandling."

Here are some pix. Not the best. Maybe WAY not the best....but..... this is them.

From what YOU can discern from these crummy images, would YOU do ANYTHING to these baby candles?
EVER? Well, I don't mean, "EVER" but at least.....when?

If this is as unclear as the pix, pls reply with questions and I'll ....attempt.... to make some sense.



(oh, I will image your bonsai for a beer. or ...after...some beers)

 

[Adair M]

You treat these like a JWP. Japanese WHITE pine. No decandling. If you have two new candles coming off a tip, keep both. If only one, obviously, keep it. If there are 3 or more, then thin to 2.

If they're near the top of the tree, keep two weaker candles. If they're near the bottom of the tree keep two stronger candles. (If there are lots of buds, and some are really weak, don't use those, use the medium strength ones.)

If when the candles extend out some get WAY LONGER than the others, shorten them to make the be about the same length as their neighbors. Be sure to leave some needles on it after you have broken it back. (Pinched)

 

[Mike Corazzi]

Thanks Adair. I think THAT got through my headbone.
Will do.

Oh, since my tree is kind of a weeping style (dome shaped) do you consider "top" of tree to be ends of branches even if they are not as high as the MIDDLE of the tree?

 

[Adair M]

Thanks Adair. I think THAT got through my headbone.
Will do.

Oh, since my tree is kind of a weeping style (dome shaped) do you consider "top" of tree to be ends of branches even if they are not as high as the MIDDLE of the tree?

View attachment 136297

The tree thinks the top of the tree is the highest part.

But, tip ends of branches tend to be stronger than interior branches.

So, yes, treat the tip ends of branches as if they were at the apex. The idea is to have all the new candles (shoots) be of equal strength. Generally speaking, pines are stronger up at the apex than they are near the bottom. So, we weaken the apex. To balance the growth.

We can't strengthen portions of the tree. We can make the whole tree strong by fertilizing, watering, appropriate sun, and good soil. Then we can weaken the parts of the tree by thinning the strong part by shortening candles, pulling needles, etc. These actions will make the weak part of the tree stronger relative to the naturally strong part of the tree.

When done correctly, the whole tree apppears to have the same strength, and is said to be "balanced".

 

[MichaelS]

Mike,

A good way to treat Pinus sylvestris...... Feed heavily during the whole growing period (assuming good drainage), thin out heavy or overly long candles by either removing entirely if there are too many, or breaking in half. (in other words keep a reasonable balance throughout the tree). Leave only two or three in any one place. At the end of the growing season, (well before any cold weather is expected -1- 2 months, but after strong is no longer possible, - timing is important and depends on local climate) remove all the matured current seasons new shoots. Stop feeding. You will see an explosion of buds around the cut areas as well as prolific back-budding even on 3-4 year wood within a month or so. These new buds will not develop into candles that season. Thin out the buds with tweezers leaving 2 at the strongest parts and 3 at the weaker areas. You may also use this time to shorten a branch or replace strong leader with a weaker one if you see fit. The next season, treat normally by candle breaking and thinning. You can repeat this procedure any time you feel the tree needs compacting. Often, once or twice is enough. Your tree is a perfect candidate. You can of coarse do this with black and red pines as well. It's not a well known or often practiced technique but the results can be spectacular. Trees treated this way must be in peak health.

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

My method is based on that of Adair.
(A)For tree in development (B) (you need backbudding, strong branching...) give plenty of fertilizer. For more developed trees (C) give less fertilizer and give a correct amount of water. To much water will give curly needles.

(B) DEVELOPMENT. Cut shoots with scissors. This way you let the new shoot accumulate energy by photosynthesis first before you cut them away.
(1) When the candle is full grown (This means there is a bud at the end of the new growth and the needles are open): the new flush is ready to be pruned back with scissors (you always leave a few pairs of needles).
(1a) what to prune: in the beginning of development and with trees you want to gain strength only remove the longest shoots at that time (about 10%). This way you will have backbudding in the strong area and the other parts will regain more strength as they will keep the full mature bud ad the end so they are ready for next year. Next year you will have a more balanced tree.
(2b) Your tree is more developed and somehow balanced: What to prune: You cut more (up to 80%) of the growing tips, leave the weak interior shoots growing. This will induce a lot of backbudding.
Repeat B as long as you need to create new buds. The better your growing conditions (correct watering, fertilizing) the faster it happens. In 3 years time you can get a weak collected scots pine full of buds.

(C) REFINING You have a tree with a lot of backbudding, it is strong and you want to force all buds to open so you can create a dome shaped pad.
When the candles are elongating you pinch / break them. This way you remove auxine flow, so the buds further down can develop. Just keep doing this as long as new candles appear. Stop depending on you climate so the shoots have time to harden off.

Watch out. Where B does accumulate energy and grows a stronger tree. C will weaken your tree. You will get small needles, small buds at the end of the year. You want this BUT you slow down the tree and it depends on your ability and observation to keep your tree happy. When health goes down, go to B again.

(D) With scots pine you can remove all last years needles in september. This will open up the tree, giving all backbuds more light and energy to strengthen, ready for next year.
(E) You can remove overly dense candles (more than 2) at any time of the year. Most often done while performing B or C.
(F) Wire in winter

A scots pine is strong enough so it will develop when you pinch to fast in its development, and if you have a very long growing season it might work alright. Here the growing season is short and we need to use the strength of the tree in its early development fase or it will take a long time to get a perfect tree.

 

[M. Frary]

If you really want to see a scots pine back bud on older wood,when the tree is good and healthy cut back into last year's growth after the current years growth has started to harden off.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

All I know is that it is LOADING up with little candles right now.

So, I'll attempt to do as instructed if I can adequately understand the process.



I'm gonna switch to geraniums.

 

[M. Frary]

I'm gonna switch to geraniums

Since that's the case send the Scots pine to me.
I'll pm you with an address,I'll pay for shipping and you won't need to go through this kind of needless torment anymore.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

Did you say you'd pay for CHIPPING?
I think you may have scared it straight.

 

[Harunobu]

Because they are the best pine for bonsai?

 

[Mike Corazzi]

Because they are the best pine for bonsai?

With care not to let them get too HOT (in a mistaken quest for SUN) I now agree.
I have 2 JBPs but one is a trial to see HOW many mistakes I can correct and the other is a relative baby.

 

[Mike Corazzi]

Well, dammit! I can't figure out how to send a PM with an IMAGE.

So.... I'll try the forum's patience again and post a couple images here of the candles (so far) on this Scots.

They're not the best pix, but lemme splain...
The one marked up is wondering if the YELLOW line is the bud that should go.

The other is just a random branch and I invite anyone who wishes to to mark it up as to which should stay and which (if any) should go.
So far, I haven't ripped off any of them. I am ...tempted.... to TWIST OFF SHORTER some that may extend "too much" ...whatever that might be.

 

[Adair M]

It depends!

The general guideline is to only keep two new shoots.

But which two?

It depends on what stage of development the tree is in, whether you are trying to get more height and girth, or whether you're working on density and ramification.

So...

The general guideline is to remove the strong shoots in the areas of the tree where the tree is strong, and keep the weaker shoots. Take that with a grain of salt! That bud you drew on has many shoots. One strong central one, a couple of medium sized ones, a couple of weak ones, and there's probably some really tiny ones. Choose between the medium and weak ones, but don't use the very weakest.

Now, if that bud was down low on the tree, that part of the tree is not as strong as the apex. So there, you might want to keep the strongest two buds.

 

[Paradox]

Since that's the case send the Scots pine to me.
I'll pm you with an address,I'll pay for shipping and you won't need to go through this kind of needless torment anymore.

I'll one up Mike on this one. I'll pay for shipping plus give you some $ for the tree.

 

[coachspinks]

I found this thread when looking for Scots pine care. I have a young cascade and have not found a lot of care info online. Am I correct in that their care is similar to that of a J. white pine?

 

[Adair M]

I found this thread when looking for Scots pine care. I have a young cascade and have not found a lot of care info online. Am I correct in that their care is similar to that of a J. white pine?

Yes

 

[coachspinks]

Thanks Adair.

 

[Potawatomi13]

I mean how, after picking out a tree some 15 years ago in an old nursery with no idea what the hell it was, did it end up being a SINGLE FLUSH ....Scots?

Then after giving it away and the recipient letting the FLOWER POT tip over and make exposed roots, how come when I found out was it a SCOTS pine?
Aaagh!

Now look at this article. I did.

https://crataegus.com/2016/04/14/big-difference-between-decandling-and-breaking-pine-shoots/

And I'm as confused as usual when it comes to THIS tree.

(please ignore the brown tips of the needles as it's the result of my COOKING the roots last summer THINKING that...SCOTS...pine would appreciate trillion degree ALL DAY sun to ...."strengthen" it.)
Oh, it is WAY better than last fall when the needles were gray and DROOPING!

So..... now to "decandling."

Here are some pix. Not the best. Maybe WAY not the best....but..... this is them.

From what YOU can discern from these crummy images, would YOU do ANYTHING to these baby candles?
EVER? Well, I don't mean, "EVER" but at least.....when?

If this is as unclear as the pix, pls reply with questions and I'll ....attempt.... to make some sense.



(oh, I will image your bonsai for a beer. or ...after...some beers)

View attachment 136288View attachment 136289View attachment 136290View attachment 136291View attachment 136292

Great explanation from Michael. Thank you.

 

[Aaronkslater]

My method is based on that of Adair.
(A)For tree in development (B) (you need backbudding, strong branching...) give plenty of fertilizer. For more developed trees (C) give less fertilizer and give a correct amount of water. To much water will give curly needles.

(B) DEVELOPMENT. Cut shoots with scissors. This way you let the new shoot accumulate energy by photosynthesis first before you cut them away.
(1) When the candle is full grown (This means there is a bud at the end of the new growth and the needles are open): the new flush is ready to be pruned back with scissors (you always leave a few pairs of needles).
(1a) what to prune: in the beginning of development and with trees you want to gain strength only remove the longest shoots at that time (about 10%). This way you will have backbudding in the strong area and the other parts will regain more strength as they will keep the full mature bud ad the end so they are ready for next year. Next year you will have a more balanced tree.
(2b) Your tree is more developed and somehow balanced: What to prune: You cut more (up to 80%) of the growing tips, leave the weak interior shoots growing. This will induce a lot of backbudding.
Repeat B as long as you need to create new buds. The better your growing conditions (correct watering, fertilizing) the faster it happens. In 3 years time you can get a weak collected scots pine full of buds.

Dirk, I have been practicing different development techniques on my Scots and your candle cutting schedule seems to be most similar to what is working for me. but, I don't seem to be getting back budding on older wood where there are no needles... I can get back budding on branch tips and a little further back where needles are still attached but not where needles have been removed or fallen off... is this normal? I really want back budding in those areas, is it possible?

thanks, Scots pine techniques have been hard to hammer down, lots of conflicting information.