for all of us DE fans......

[Captnignit]

Here's another image of DE at a similar scale. But I fail to see how it's misleading as the image of turface, blown up or otherwise, still seems very solid and uniform.

 

[0soyoung]

So, keeping that scale in mind, the root tip is about as wide as the entire DE picture (the small inset in my version) -- it seems unlikely to me that root hairs are going to be fitting into any of the "tube" structures in DE.

You have kind of a good point here. The problem though, is that the 'hair roots' that accomplish most of the adsorption of minerals and water are actually extensions of single cells (one of those little bubbles in this pic

). These hair root cells occur behind the root cap.

 

[PiñonJ]

I'm betting that at some scale larger than 10 microns, akadama clay has weak cleavage bonds for some reason, so turgid root tips are able to apply sufficient wedge pressure (as opposed to say, needing huge iron wedges, as in the granite video).

The thing is, we're not talking about the moment when the particle is fractured. Long before that, it is pierced by the root - it is like a marshmallow on a stick, perfectly intact, other than the root sticking through it. So, again, unlike our other inorganic components, the root is finding a pathway through the akadama long before it cleaves it.

As viewers though we should engage in discussion to further the horticultural science and ultimately further the art of bonsai. Not blindly listen and condemn others when they say new or conflicting ideas.

Absolutely, and I hope you don't think I was condemning you. I was just reporting what I have learned and observed first hand. I find this whole discussion interesting.

 

[0soyoung]

Again I am not doubting Ryan on his method or results.

I take it all with a 'grain-of-salt', as 'they say'. I think you should too.
Skepticism is part of the scientific method.
Does the data bear out the hypothesis and vice versa?

What do we know about roots?

• They need to be damp -> there must be a film of water covering the working parts (i.e., the area behind the root cap that accomplishes most of the adsorption.
• Cells inside must get oxygen for metabolism
  • oxygen must become dissolved in water (solubility decreases with increasing temperature)
  • oxygen must diffuse in water (the diffusion ratencreases with temperature)
• Hair roots are extensions of the wall of single cells
• Roots extend by the expansion of new cells produced by the (root) apical meristem cells under the root cap

My main thought is that maybe it would be great if we had a medium that could maintain a monolayer of water molecules on the surface of hair roots (minimum oxygen diffusion distance while maintaining a 'wet' root surface on hair root cell).

A secondary thought is that maybe near the cap and behind the hair root region (white root tips) the root tissues may be healthier with no water - IOW, only the region of white root tips should be damp; otherwise, maybe the roots should be dry (like the above ground tissues).

A tertiary thought why would Akadama be magical? Why would DE be magical? Why isn't Turface magical? How could a experiment be conducted to prove/refute hypothesis? My belief is that Akadama magic is confirmation bias. But I am skeptical.

 

[Joe Dupre']

And let's not forget akadama is a natural product. It may not be, and probably is not, absolutely consistent from location to location or at all depths. It may be that Japan knows and keeps the best stuff for itself and sells off the inferior product to the rest of the world. Naw, that could never happen!

 

[milehigh_7]

@milehigh_7 any progress on getting the coarse, larger particle size of the DE from the supplier in your area?

Yes, actually they are working on a new size right now. I am going to call tomorrow and get some specifics. The one I have samples of right now ranges from 3/16 to 5/16. I am hoping they can take that bottom screen size down one to 1/8" I will let you all know. Then the question will be how to get it out to everyone...

 

[milehigh_7]

I know Adam Lavigne is going to be doing another soil post so I sent him a little sample to check out of the one that I have. I'll be interested to see what he thinks.

 

[Gsquared]

When I started bonsai in the 1980's I didn't know about bonsai clubs so relied on books from the 60-70s. Back then the book mix was 1 part sand, 1 part peat moss, and one part loam/soil/leaf mould or what have you. But you know what, my trees lived and . By the time I found the bonsai club (San Francisco 1990-2006) the popular mix was aquarium sand, red lava, fine fir bark and a little soil. Over time we tried replacing various ingredients such as expanded shale, decomposed granite, pumice, for a while everyone was using black lava instead of red. Then came akadama. Someone could say it was better for a tangible, scientific reason. So we all started putting it in our mixes. By then the soil was dropped and fir bark stayed in for a while (I still put a bit in for my deciduous trees), then came the "Boon Mix". A much simpler mix that seems to work well for most. The point of all of this is we learn and change over decades. Right now diatomite rock/DE seems to be all the rage and again there seems to be some scientific evidence in favor of it. I just bought a bag and am going to try it. Akadama seems to be having a good run, like red lava, the longevity of these are much better, so I'm guessing they are pretty good media. We learn and improve and try new things. Someone is going to find that Mt. Hood akadama and blow us all away with how great it is. I can't wait to try it! The trees may like it. Still, I think Walter Pall has a point, "the trees don't care". I might add "that much."

 

[Walter Pall]

When I started bonsai in the 1980's I didn't know about bonsai clubs so relied on books from the 60-70s. Back then the book mix was 1 part sand, 1 part peat moss, and one part loam/soil/leaf mould or what have you. But you know what, my trees lived and . By the time I found the bonsai club (San Francisco 1990-2006) the popular mix was aquarium sand, red lava, fine fir bark and a little soil. Over time we tried replacing various ingredients such as expanded shale, decomposed granite, pumice, for a while everyone was using black lava instead of red. Then came akadama. Someone could say it was better for a tangible, scientific reason. So we all started putting it in our mixes. By then the soil was dropped and fir bark stayed in for a while (I still put a bit in for my deciduous trees), then came the "Boon Mix". A much simpler mix that seems to work well for most. The point of all of this is we learn and change over decades. Right now diatomite rock/DE seems to be all the rage and again there seems to be some scientific evidence in favor of it. I just bought a bag and am going to try it. Akadama seems to be having a good run, like red lava, the longevity of these are much better, so I'm guessing they are pretty good media. We learn and improve and try new things. Someone is going to find that Mt. Hood akadama and blow us all away with how great it is. I can't wait to try it! The trees may like it. Still, I think Walter Pall has a point, "the trees don't care". I might add "that much."

Agreed, same here.
To discuss soils the way it's done here recently is like having a cooking forum and then 90% of the discussion is about the chemical and physical properties of certain food ingredients. All this discussion is widely superfluous. The energy could be spent on discussing how to make more artistic bonsai.

 

[leatherback]

All this discussion is widely superfluous. The energy could be spent on discussing how to make more artistic bonsai.

Oeh, I like that suggestion.

Abusing the situation: Walter, could you start us off with a new topic on the artistics of bonsai, and how to develop a sense for what works and what doesn't?

 

[jriddell88]

Agreed, same here.
To discuss soils the way it's done here recently is like having a cooking forum and then 90% of the discussion is about the chemical and physical properties of certain food ingredients. All this discussion is widely superfluous. The energy could be spent on discussing how to make more artistic bonsai.

This ,this is what I have been thinking , if the trees are growing and heathy, why are we so worried about it at a microscopic level, Time is a very valuable thing ,

Very valuable quote

 

[jacob letoile]

My main thought is that maybe it would be great if we had a medium that could maintain a monolayer of water molecules on the surface of hair roots

Holding the tree, by the trunk over a nutrient solution that is being vigorously airated. Close enough that thd mist from the bursting bubbles could wet the roots but not IN the solution. Not sure how you would fit a pot in that setup...

 

[sorce]

The energy could be spent on discussing how to make more artistic bonsai.

Thanks for the new quote line!

We must worry about our own energy allocation, way before we worry about energy allocation in a tree!

Sorce

 

[Gary McCarthy]

Yes, actually they are working on a new size right now. I am going to call tomorrow and get some specifics. The one I have samples of right now ranges from 3/16 to 5/16. I am hoping they can take that bottom screen size down one to 1/8" I will let you all know. Then the question will be how to get it out to everyone...

SUPER!!!

 

[Waltron]

Just wish we had the kitty litter the brits have. Anyone seen the health of harry Harrington’s collection? He’s uses DE, and bark. 50 50 Cat litter - bark. On show trees, oh which he has many.

 

[Shima]

It's exactly the same just a different size.

I know. BIG difference, but it confuses people. At least make 'diatomite rock."

 

[Paulpash]

Thank you for those images, @sparklemotion. I am fairly certain the division and breaking of akadama pieces is NOT attributed to roots entering tiny tubes which are then expanded and fractured by growing roots. I agree with your hypothesis that there is some interaction at the macro level that allows the unfired akadama to split apart.

Those SEM images of akadama are terribly small and do not show anything. Looks like there's some networking and structure present but the scale bar is unreadable.

Another thing to clarify is that the SEM image of the diatomaceous earth is depicting a diatom. One diatom. One of many shapes diatoms come in. It just so happened that diatom has a cylindrical tube like structure but is not indicative of DE as a whole. Also diatoms are immensely small. Some down to 2 microns in size meaning those tubes and networking are even smaller.

Again I am not doubting Ryan on his method or results. I am confident it is how he says. Except he want to present his information in a scientific manner. He's big on explaining and showing why things work instead of just telling people this is the way and because I said it it's right. I respect Ryan for that. But if he's going to engage in a scientific discussion it means to share knowledge and test ideas. If he just wants to blindly preach I can't respect him for that but I don't think he's doing that. He explains things best to his knowledge and openly admits areas he lacks it in.

As viewers though we should engage in discussion to further the horticultural science and ultimately further the art of bonsai. Not blindly listen and condemn others when they say new or conflicting ideas. Discussion can be so valuable but all I see on the different Facebook groups is people parroting the same conventions and putting down anyone who says otherwise. Admittedly some new comers did not put in their research and are asking dumb questions they could of solved on their own. The bigger picture I'm getting at is the kind of attitude we want to foster to help grow and develop the bonsai community.

Also as someone who has been fairly involved in the scientific community the past few years and have seen people work their ass off with insane hours to test, prove, and share their ideas. If you're going to claim the title of science and start using for itself then you better respect how science is built and works. Doing otherwise is an affront to the whole scientific community.


I did find my SEM images of pumice. I am fairly certain akadama is a pumice derived material. Some geological process I don't have any knowledge in transformed it into akadama. Let's just assume though that akadama does bear a similar networked porous structure as pumice. You look at the images yourself and measure the tunnel size with the scale bar. Compare that to the root meristem @sparklemotion shared and you'll quickly realize that the roots are at best barely the size of the opening with most tunnels significantly smaller than the roots. I think there is too much emphasis on the tube structure Ryan mentioned and may be misguiding. It's good that we are looking into the interaction between roots and soil though. Good understanding of the fundamental science can bring out techniques that may help us with bonsai.

View attachment 175840

Is it feasible the breakdown of Akadama is at least in part due to freeze / thaw expansion and contraction rather than root action? If those tunnels are full of water and it freezes then it surely would split the particle at that point. It would be so amazing if an in depth study of the various common substrates were done in relation to how roots interact with each.

 

[Gary McCarthy]

I just finished with Ryan's Q&A stream from today and I was able to ask him a couple questions about his DE comments from his live stream last week. First, the name brand horticultural grade of DE he's currently testing is AXIS - https://epminerals.com/products/axis-soil-amendment I did a quick Google search and unfortunately I wasn't able to find a spot to purchase any to try.

I also asked Ryan about the differences between horticultural grade and products like NAPA 8822 or Optisorb. He said it was about particle size and having the correct size to maintain a proper level of water & oxygen. For Ryan the proper particle size is 1/4" to 1/2" for the bottom air layer/drainage layer, and 1/16" to 1/4" for the interior soil.

 

[Captnignit]

Only thing I've found on axis is here: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/3012651/calcined-diatomaceous-earth-de-for-gritty-mix-evaluations

They're using something called Axis Regular which may be different since it looks like they now have split out a DE and Calcined Clay products.

 

[milehigh_7]

I just finished with Ryan's Q&A stream from today and I was able to ask him a couple questions about his DE comments from his live stream last week. First, the name brand horticultural grade of DE he's currently testing is AXIS - https://epminerals.com/products/axis-soil-amendment I did a quick Google search and unfortunately I wasn't able to find a spot to purchase any to try.

I also asked Ryan about the differences between horticultural grade and products like NAPA 8822 or Optisorb. He said it was about particle size and having the correct size to maintain a proper level of water & oxygen. For Ryan the proper particle size is 1/4" to 1/2" for the bottom air layer/drainage layer, and 1/16" to 1/4" for the interior soil.

I just spoke to the owner of the company that distributes Axis and I will be the exclusive retail contact.

I have a very limited quantity right now of the course product which only has 2% fines so that's pretty awesome. Give me a shout if you want a sample to look at. I sent a little bit to Adam Lavigne and he liked it. I will be sending a sample to @markyscott to look at as well.