Extreme Bonsai

You do not need to have a 95% confidence interval to know that there is causation. If fact, you can have far less, and still have causation, or you can have far more, and not have causation.

No, I will not teach you a semester's worth of statistics for free. That would be a lot of work, and you're not paying for it.

It took me ten minutes. What do you think people do? Live on this forum, read your posts and then embark on a 4 day quest to refute you?

And no, it is not well known that NASA is endeavoring to fake the data. But now that I know that this is the world view from which you come, I don't see much point in furthering my discussions with you on this point. If you think NASA is just an organization of smart hoaxers, it is doubtful that you will accept any data that conflicts with your opinions, no matter how ironclad.

LOL! Well now it is clear that you are unable to correct me, is it possible you were speaking out of your backside? So I checked out your sources as I said I would do and it did not take long to see how you either A) misunderstood what I said or B) don't understand the concepts involved.

I will start out by saying that it is clear and obvious that humanity has a negative impact on nature everywhere we have touched it. It is also obvious that there are times when this damage is permanent. Also, everyone knows about greenhouse gasses and their impact on planetary atmospheres. None of these things are debatable and none of these things were ever my point. I think it's adorable that you assume to know my educational experience and "world view." Perhaps Dion Warwick can offer you a job at her psychic network.

First to the sources, typically in graduate work, sources over 10 years old are not allowed. However, I suppose as Dr. Yung calls himself a pioneer in his bio we can accept 41-year-old work. Secondly, your 97% all scientists claim, you will need to try to follow this carefully as you and I said different things and you again made an assumption that you were correct. I said:

"First, it is physically impossible for you to make a claim about what 97% of scientists believe ... How would you verify this claim? Has there been some poll of every living scientist in every field? What exactly qualifies someone as a "scientist" by your definition anyhow?"
You replied with a source that seems to back you up at first glance but what that source quantifies is the percentage of "peer reviewed" publications by scientists in that field. I would completely believe this number even without reading a study that says so. I will get to my reasons for that in a second.

Back to your initial claim, "...97% of the world's scientists..." It was this number I was refuting and it was not addressed by your source. So the evidence you offer is a 41-year-old document that merely states that greenhouse gasses have an impact on planetary atmospheric temperature which is really invalid as it is a given. Next, you offer a study that does indeed say 97% however it was not the population I asked about and not the one you claimed to speak for. Oh and some magazines were thrown in for good measure. I can't say that I am impressed by one who would suppose to pontificate about how educated they are and how ignorant I am.

Now to why I would believe the "97%" number that you threw out there as your trump card, invalid though your point may be. When someone would like to publish a study the very first thing they need is to be sponsored. If the paper's topic is not approved, the study does not go forward, let alone get published. (I'm sure you know all this but I'll say it anyhow...) In spite of Gustavo's claims to the contrary (and maybe Universities work differently in Europe who knows...) universities require funding to operate. They will do studies for things that produce funding sources and definitely not for things that anger funding sources. Currently, there are few businesses that are more lucrative than "green energy" (maybe security but that's another topic). Companies stand to make hundreds of billions selling the need for this using the fake crisis that if we don't all "go green" we will die.

Therefore the grants are written, fellowships are created, research facilities are built and all we need to do is have papers that say what we need to say.

A quick anecdote from my first degree. I wanted to publish a study regarding the potential effects of a particular drug that was being prescribed for epilepsy on the part of the brain that controls mood disorders. This drug was fairly new at the time and I really thought this particular study had merit. I went to the department chair because as I stated, a sponsor is required, he told me it was stupid and would not allow me to continue. That drug has been used for years as a mood stabilizer. That was my first experience with the truth of, you only get to publish what the Sr. people want you to publish.

I did finish my double BS in Psychology/Biology then a BS in Computer Science I used that to work for Visa on the database that authorizes 25% of the credit card transactions in the world. Then I moved on to become a software engineer writing game code and creating math algorithms and such for slot machines no big deal there. During that time I got my first Masters in Theology from Fuller which is considered by all to be one of the top academic universities in the world in any field. (I will get my second graduate degree this fall in Special Education, as Gustavo so delicately put it I write like I'm teaching children) While doing this my wife and I started an international non-profit to aid in researching sarcoma which is a particularly nasty type of cancer.

One thing I discovered was that sarcoma, unlike other types of cancer receives no funding for research. Literally, less than 1/10 of 1% of cancer funding goes to this killer. Mind you, 30% of children's cancer deaths are from Sarcoma. So we actually funded our own study into the genetics of Sarcoma through the Keck research hospital at USC Children's. Do you know why sarcoma does not get funded and the others do? It's because nobody lives. There is a less than 20% survival rate with sarcoma. Guess what the pharmaceutical companies need to make the most money off a cancer patient? They need to at least string your death out for awhile while they sell you millions of dollars worth of drugs.

Sarcoma patients don't last that long normally and nothing helps. So, no cash for the studies. See how this works??? I'm not as stupid as you think. I have seen the dirt of research from the inside. You keep thinking it's some moral high ground if you wish. The truth is the lefties are puppets for people like George Soros that are getting filthy rich off of your fear.
 
LOL! Well now it is clear that you are unable to correct me, is it possible you were speaking out of your backside? So I checked out your sources as I said I would do and it did not take long to see how you either A) misunderstood what I said or B) don't understand the concepts involved.

I will start out by saying that it is clear and obvious that humanity has a negative impact on nature everywhere we have touched it. It is also obvious that there are times when this damage is permanent. Also, everyone knows about greenhouse gasses and their impact on planetary atmospheres. None of these things are debatable and none of these things were ever my point. I think it's adorable that you assume to know my educational experience and "world view." Perhaps Dion Warwick can offer you a job at her psychic network.

First to the sources, typically in graduate work, sources over 10 years old are not allowed. However, I suppose as Dr. Yung calls himself a pioneer in his bio we can accept 41-year-old work. Secondly, your 97% all scientists claim, you will need to try to follow this carefully as you and I said different things and you again made an assumption that you were correct. I said:

"First, it is physically impossible for you to make a claim about what 97% of scientists believe ... How would you verify this claim? Has there been some poll of every living scientist in every field? What exactly qualifies someone as a "scientist" by your definition anyhow?"
You replied with a source that seems to back you up at first glance but what that source quantifies is the percentage of "peer reviewed" publications by scientists in that field. I would completely believe this number even without reading a study that says so. I will get to my reasons for that in a second.

Back to your initial claim, "...97% of the world's scientists..." It was this number I was refuting and it was not addressed by your source. So the evidence you offer is a 41-year-old document that merely states that greenhouse gasses have an impact on planetary atmospheric temperature which is really invalid as it is a given. Next, you offer a study that does indeed say 97% however it was not the population I asked about and not the one you claimed to speak for. Oh and some magazines were thrown in for good measure. I can't say that I am impressed by one who would suppose to pontificate about how educated they are and how ignorant I am.

Now to why I would believe the "97%" number that you threw out there as your trump card, invalid though your point may be. When someone would like to publish a study the very first thing they need is to be sponsored. If the paper's topic is not approved, the study does not go forward, let alone get published. (I'm sure you know all this but I'll say it anyhow...) In spite of Gustavo's claims to the contrary (and maybe Universities work differently in Europe who knows...) universities require funding to operate. They will do studies for things that produce funding sources and definitely not for things that anger funding sources. Currently, there are few businesses that are more lucrative than "green energy" (maybe security but that's another topic). Companies stand to make hundreds of billions selling the need for this using the fake crisis that if we don't all "go green" we will die.

Therefore the grants are written, fellowships are created, research facilities are built and all we need to do is have papers that say what we need to say.

A quick anecdote from my first degree. I wanted to publish a study regarding the potential effects of a particular drug that was being prescribed for epilepsy on the part of the brain that controls mood disorders. This drug was fairly new at the time and I really thought this particular study had merit. I went to the department chair because as I stated, a sponsor is required, he told me it was stupid and would not allow me to continue. That drug has been used for years as a mood stabilizer. That was my first experience with the truth of, you only get to publish what the Sr. people want you to publish.

I did finish my double BS in Psychology/Biology then a BS in Computer Science I used that to work for Visa on the database that authorizes 25% of the credit card transactions in the world. Then I moved on to become a software engineer writing game code and creating math algorithms and such for slot machines no big deal there. During that time I got my first Masters in Theology from Fuller which is considered by all to be one of the top academic universities in the world in any field. (I will get my second graduate degree this fall in Special Education, as Gustavo so delicately put it I write like I'm teaching children) While doing this my wife and I started an international non-profit to aid in researching sarcoma which is a particularly nasty type of cancer.

One thing I discovered was that sarcoma, unlike other types of cancer receives no funding for research. Literally, less than 1/10 of 1% of cancer funding goes to this killer. Mind you, 30% of children's cancer deaths are from Sarcoma. So we actually funded our own study into the genetics of Sarcoma through the Keck research hospital at USC Children's. Do you know why sarcoma does not get funded and the others do? It's because nobody lives. There is a less than 20% survival rate with sarcoma. Guess what the pharmaceutical companies need to make the most money off a cancer patient? They need to at least string your death out for awhile while they sell you millions of dollars worth of drugs.

Sarcoma patients don't last that long normally and nothing helps. So, no cash for the studies. See how this works??? I'm not as stupid as you think. I have seen the dirt of research from the inside. You keep thinking it's some moral high ground if you wish. The truth is the lefties are puppets for people like George Soros that are getting filthy rich off of your fear.
God bless you for putting it together like this.
 
Political beliefs aside how can you not agree that this sounds like a Trump tactic?

Very easily! Use of word "tactic" implies manipulation or dishonesty. YOUR tactic to manipulate agreement from us. Many prefer statement of plain truth calling out leftist/NWO liars, criminals, manipulators rather than PC baloney. After years of socialist/NWO manipulation of puppet Ohomo the disgusted are plenty ready to hear somebody in power decrying all of it. Hitler was a liar. President Trump says like it is:p!
 
I almost have a degree, just a couple of credits short from a major University and I have a patant and you think I couldn't find by ass with both hands tied behind my back.

Nowhere did I ever say you were stupid, much less that you couldn't find your ass (although, frankly, if they were tied well enough, that would be trouble for any of us). I'm only taking exception to your knowledge, understand and bias on this issue.

I also do not accept the assertion that if we give up all our technology and pay reparations for out past deed we can change it. BULL SHIT.

I'll agree with you that there are a lot of proposals being tossed around that could be very costly, and we don't know enough to determine whether they would be necessary and feasible. But just because there are bad proposals to fix things, however, doesn't mean the underlying analysis about the problem was wrong.

LOL! Well now it is clear that you are unable to correct me, is it possible you were speaking out of your backside? So I checked out your sources as I said I would do and it did not take long to see how you either A) misunderstood what I said or B) don't understand the concepts involved.

I will start out by saying that it is clear and obvious that humanity has a negative impact on nature everywhere we have touched it. It is also obvious that there are times when this damage is permanent. Also, everyone knows about greenhouse gasses and their impact on planetary atmospheres. None of these things are debatable and none of these things were ever my point. I think it's adorable that you assume to know my educational experience and "world view." Perhaps Dion Warwick can offer you a job at her psychic network.

First to the sources, typically in graduate work, sources over 10 years old are not allowed. However, I suppose as Dr. Yung calls himself a pioneer in his bio we can accept 41-year-old work. Secondly, your 97% all scientists claim, you will need to try to follow this carefully as you and I said different things and you again made an assumption that you were correct. I said:

"First, it is physically impossible for you to make a claim about what 97% of scientists believe ... How would you verify this claim? Has there been some poll of every living scientist in every field? What exactly qualifies someone as a "scientist" by your definition anyhow?"
You replied with a source that seems to back you up at first glance but what that source quantifies is the percentage of "peer reviewed" publications by scientists in that field. I would completely believe this number even without reading a study that says so. I will get to my reasons for that in a second.

Back to your initial claim, "...97% of the world's scientists..." It was this number I was refuting and it was not addressed by your source. So the evidence you offer is a 41-year-old document that merely states that greenhouse gasses have an impact on planetary atmospheric temperature which is really invalid as it is a given. Next, you offer a study that does indeed say 97% however it was not the population I asked about and not the one you claimed to speak for. Oh and some magazines were thrown in for good measure. I can't say that I am impressed by one who would suppose to pontificate about how educated they are and how ignorant I am ... [yadda, yadda, yadda]

In the legal profession, we have a term phrase to describe rambling retorts like this, that casually dissemble and then pivot to another point, and then run off to inapposite tangeants. It's called throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks. One doesn't need to be a psychic (as if there was such a thing) to understand how you see the world. It can be inferred from the many things you've said. This post reinforces it. One would think that, in your pursuit of not one, but five different college degrees, at some point, you'd have been taught how to read critically. And yet you completely misread my post to think that I was citing that 1976 study as my evidence of what 97% of the world's scientists believe today. No, dude, go back and reread it.

But yes, we can infer a consensus of 97% among all scientists (probably more than that) from the fact that 97% of those who are published in peer reviewed journals are in agreement. We don't need a questionnaire returned by every scientist on the planet to be able to make statements like that with confidence. Notwithstanding your challenges as an undergraduate seeking to be published, if there was a great groundswell of opposition among the world's scientists, enough of them would be able to publish to move that number, even if there were some places where they would be laughed out of the room.

And in fact, when there are a few scientists who consider themselves part of the groundswell, and they do get the funding, and they do a proper study, looking to disprove the majority, guess what conclusion they reach?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/the-conversion-of-a-climate-change-skeptic.html (and no, this is by no means the only one)

In any event, back to the throwing shit against the wall. I didn't ask you to explain why you think you are so smart. I said, if you are so damn smart, why don't you explain for us where Yung and NASA and the rest of the 97% went wrong?

Still waiting for that. The rest of it is just typical Internet debate bullshit.
 
Last edited:
Nowhere did I ever say you were stupid, much less that you couldn't find your ass (although, frankly, if they were tied well enough, that would be trouble for any of us). I'm only taking exception to your knowledge, understand and bias on this issue.



I'll agree with you that there are a lot of proposals being tossed around that could be very costly, and we don't know enough to determine whether they would be necessary and feasible. But just because there are bad proposals to fix things, however, doesn't mean the underlying analysis about the problem was wrong.



In the legal profession, we have a term phrase to describe rambling retorts like this, that casually dissemble and then pivot to another point, and then run off to inapposite tangeants. It's called throwing shit against the wall to see what sticks. One doesn't need to be a psychic (as if there was such a thing) to understand how you see the world. It can be inferred from the many things you've said. This post reinforces it. One would think that, in your pursuit of not one, but five different college degrees, at some point, you'd have been taught how to read critically. And yet you completely misread my post to think that I was citing that 1976 study as my evidence of what 97% of the world's scientists believe today. No, dude, go back and reread it.

But yes, we can infer a consensus of 97% among all scientists (probably more than that) from the fact that 97% of those who are published in peer reviewed journals are in agreement. We don't need a questionnaire returned by every scientist on the planet to be able to make statements like that with confidence. Notwithstanding your challenges as an undergraduate seeking to be published, if there was a great groundswell of opposition among the world's scientists, enough of them would be able to publish to move that number, even if there were some places where they would be laughed out of the room.

And in fact, when there are a few scientists who consider themselves part of the groundswell, and they do get the funding, and they do a proper study, looking to disprove the majority, guess what conclusion they reach?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/opinion/the-conversion-of-a-climate-change-skeptic.html (and no, this is by no means the only one)

In any event, back to the throwing shit against the wall. I didn't ask you to explain why you think you are so smart. I said, if you are so damn smart, why don't you explain for us where Yung and NASA and the rest of the 97% went wrong?

Still waiting for that. The rest of it is just typical Internet debate bullshit.



I disagree with your supposition that "we can infer a consensus" based on what you presented. Clearly, you disagree my positions. At the end of the day, that's just fine. I don't see this discussion making any further progress. So, @michaelj if you're open to an amicable end to the discussion I would say it's for the best. If I insulted you in any way, I apologize.
 
I disagree with your supposition that "we can infer a consensus" based on what you presented. Clearly, you disagree my positions. At the end of the day, that's just fine. I don't see this discussion making any further progress. So, @michaelj if you're open to an amicable end to the discussion I would say it's for the best. If I insulted you in any way, I apologize.

How about addressing the merits of the discussion?

If you disagree with what I say we can infer, tell us, upon what can we infer the opposite conclusion, i.e., that 97% agreement in all published peer-reviewed papers is actually contrary to the opinions of a substantial percentage of scientists?

And if NASA and Dr. Yung are so wrong, show us where and how they are wrong.

I think you cannot do either, because your position is based upon nothing more than an irrational rejection of the prevailing evidence, and that is why you are arguing in the manner in which you do.
 
Sponsored science is very common in medical fields. Not so much in other areas, at least not in ecology (my area). Yes I do get payed and write grants for research projects. But I also do experiments that have received no funding whatsoever. And these also get to be published. part of the research I supervise (MSc and PhD students, but especially the former cause there are
No grants for masters anymore ) is not sponsored at all.

I do not know the numbers. But I can say that I am yet to see any scientist disagreeing with climate change and I do attend some symposia.
 
Sponsored science is very common in medical fields. Not so much in other areas, at least not in ecology (my area). Yes I do get payed and write grants for research projects. But I also do experiments that have received no funding whatsoever. And these also get to be published. part of the research I supervise (MSc and PhD students, but especially the former cause there are
No grants for masters anymore ) is not sponsored at all.

I do not know the numbers. But I can say that I am yet to see any scientist disagreeing with climate change and I do attend some symposia.
I have heard of a lot of scientists that disagree with the Climate Change scenario, I have even heard some of the interviewed and what they had to say. You wrote: I am yet to see any scientist disagreeing with climate change. Maybe you are not looking or not listening. The problem is these people put their lives and careers on the line and find themselves vilified in much the same way I have experienced for disagreeing with this point of view here. People who have spent their entire lives in a particular field are loath to not only put that education and career on the line for trying to oppose this stuff but they risk the welfare of their families. It is not unreasonable that many of these people would hide their lights under a bushel much in the way that many were forced to do during the onslaught of Nazi science against the Jews in the 40's.

As to the symposia you attend. I would tend to believe that it is much like a bonsai show, where the symposia is made up of the best names and loudest voices in the field. Odds are if you are one of those who oppose the cause celeb you will be marginalized if not vilified. If you manage to get invited at all it will be at your own risk as itemized previously.
 
that we are not a primary cause of that warming trend, these ideas are no longer considered plausible by any serious scientist in the relevant fields.

Baloney! Being from land of fruits and nuts not surprised to see you believe it:rolleyes:.
 
Oh man... you call all our arguments poo poo and you're saying that I cannot blame people for being stupid? Are you not calling stupid ourselves as well?

This because few but supported by NWO and world socialism propound YOUR ignorant assertion and decry/discredit loudly those actual scientists of opposing view:p! Climate NAZIS of your cadre are the stupid:rolleyes:.
 
First Day Of Summer!

5:02 pm Way home from work :eek:. Downpour w/ high wind. Question is, where was the tree uprooted???
View attachment 150146

5:22 pm After dodging a bunch of downed branches like Froggers sky cleared up like nothing happened.
View attachment 150147

5:45 pm Came home to one incident. I really hope this ailing Crypto will make it. Growing new roots and everything! Rest of the yard looks as if nothing happened.
View attachment 150148

Put in container with some weight;).
 
The problem is these people put their lives and careers on the line and find themselves vilified in much the same way I have experienced for disagreeing with this point of view here.

Vance at older age we have earned right to disagree with ignorant fools with impugnity;).
 
Only when you try to propagate dangerous falsehoods. Or when you're being particularly cantankerous.

Cantankerous I AM! Swallowed the lie you have and is matter of complete faith to you but NOT matter of truth.
 
Well. If you're right and you're not smarter than these guys, who must be wrong according to you... So most scientists around the world have sold out to the idea of climate change...

You ever hear of common sense? That's being able to smell when something stinks of dishonesty:eek:.
 
Also, where will those species living in polar regions go if it warms?
Also have you thought about potential mismatches? Species are not responding all at the same rate.
What if warming causes plants to grow further north but not bees? no pollination.
What if some animals hatch earlier than their food? starvation
What if flower blooms occur earlier than pollinators hatch?
and so on.

Surely you believe in evolution!

You all know I like throwing wrenches in these discussions.....

This time....

It's a hammer.


My daughter asked me when grass was invented.

I wonder how many people involved in this argument drive a Tesla AND breath air polluted by coal burning electric plants.

I wonder if anyone knows where the trolley went.

First things first...the swastika is a symbol of peace.
Backwards....a gang symbol.
Oh Hitler. Himler. Nice jammies!

Why is everything addictive taxed higher?

@M. Frary

Fuuurrrrrnt....(garlic odors).

Until fart gas is emitted over 98.6 F global warming is a myth!

There are those who argue the impending apocalypse..
And those who survive it.

Where is your Hammer?

Sorce
 
global warming is a myth
A lie is as good as the truth.
If you truly believe.
And are a sheep.
Or just go ask a penguin or polar bear if Global Warming is a hoax.
 
Better be careful about saying that kind of thing. They are liable to show up at your residence in black jump suits, ski masks, clubs and fire.

Utter nonsense. You might be really good with trees, but this kind of fear mongering and caricaturing of people who disagree with you is just despicable. It looks like when you cannot find any data that supports your ideologically-tinted disbelief in a harmful process that we can all see with our plain eyes (remember all those planes grounded last week because it was too hot to fly? Extreme storms? Historic draughts all over the world--not just California, but Africa, parts of Asia, Europe, Latin America?) you resort to painting your opponents as some kind of violent, terrorist-like cabal of people. If you cannot have a civilized discussion, then maybe you need to rethink why you are participating in a public forum. Otherwise, you just degrade the level of discourse here.
 
Utter nonsense. You might be really good with trees, but this kind of fear mongering and caricaturing of people who disagree with you is just despicable. It looks like when you cannot find any data that supports your ideologically-tinted disbelief in a harmful process that we can all see with our plain eyes (remember all those planes grounded last week because it was too hot to fly? Extreme storms? Historic draughts all over the world--not just California, but Africa, parts of Asia, Europe, Latin America?) you resort to painting your opponents as some kind of violent, terrorist-like cabal of people. If you cannot have a civilized discussion, then maybe you need to rethink why you are participating in a public forum. Otherwise, you just degrade the level of discourse here.
You cannot tell the difference between sarcasm and an improbable accusation? However; how do you describe the crowd that showed up at the UC at Berkly to protest the invited speach by Ann Coulter? They showed up in black jump suits, ski masks, clubs and fire. The left has lost it's sense of humor unless it is at someone else's expense. It is not the Conservetives that show up like this, it is you lefties that violently demand that kind of change you want to happen.

You wrote: If you cannot have a civilized discussion, then maybe you need to rethink why you are participating in a public forum. Otherwise, you just degrade the level of discourse here. It is not I that has shoved this in the dumpster. It makes me wonder where you came from and have you even looked at my record on the forum? Your 67 posts trump my 10,000 plus?
 
Back
Top Bottom