Unconventional and uneconomical soil components

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

I haven't seen anyone talk about these (probably a good reason) but would like to attempt to get anyone's experiences, opinions, anecdotal observations. If you have run across these at any point in time, used them or thought of using them please comment. I don't want to reform on the sound ideal mixes or the components therein; I simply want to start a (hopefully) fun discussion on the possibilities of the, passed over or unheard of by the majority, soil components we don't consider.

1. Perlite (unprocessed, non popped, and just out of the mine)- being unprocessed, this is obviously much heavier than horticultural perlite. I found someone selling small inexpensive boxes of golfball sizes pieces on ebay so I decided to get a few bust some up, sieve and experiment. I have found it to be very similar to pumice in texture and density.

2. Sandstone- I believe everyone knows what this is. Its all over everywhere, there are different densities ranging from fragile falls to dust in your hand to keeps it's form and holds water similar to LECA.

3. Dacite- falling somewhere between granite and pumice in weight and water holding capabilities this rock is loudly touted by the author of the stone eaters cactus soil article (I believe from Italy) who also advocated for the use of traditional bonsai soil components (akadama, kanuma, and chabasai) in soil mixes to be used for some of the more difficult to keep cacti species. Perhaps it could be useful in bonsai as well. I found a small inexpensive box of golfball sized chunks on eBay from the same seller as the perlite and, while it's been more difficult to break up and sieve than the perlite, I did it and I am now planning to experiment.

4. Mica
5. Mica schist
6. Volcanic tuff
7. Granadiorite

While I'm mainly interested in inert inorganic components, feel free to comment on anything that you've been curious about as well. Ill add to this list and take pictures of the busted/sifted components in the future if this topic piques anyone's interest.

 

[Adair M]

I haven't seen anyone talk about these (probably a good reason) but would like to attempt to get anyone's experiences, opinions, anecdotal observations. If you have run across these at any point in time, used them or thought of using them please comment. I don't want to reform on the sound ideal mixes or the components therein; I simply want to start a (hopefully) fun discussion on the possibilities of the, passed over or unheard of by the majority, soil components we don't consider.

1. Perlite (unprocessed, non popped, and just out of the mine)- being unprocessed, this is obviously much heavier than horticultural perlite. I found someone selling small inexpensive boxes of golfball sizes pieces on ebay so I decided to get a few bust some up, sieve and experiment. I have found it to be very similar to pumice in texture and density.

2. Sandstone- I believe everyone knows what this is. Its all over everywhere, there are different densities ranging from fragile falls to dust in your hand to keeps it's form and holds water similar to LECA.

3. Dacite- falling somewhere between granite and pumice in weight and water holding capabilities this rock is loudly touted by the author of the stone eaters cactus soil article (I believe from Italy) who also advocated for the use of traditional bonsai soil components (akadama, kanuma, and chabasai) in soil mixes to be used for some of the more difficult to keep cacti species. Perhaps it could be useful in bonsai as well. I found a small inexpensive box of golfball sized chunks on eBay from the same seller as the perlite and, while it's been more difficult to break up and sieve than the perlite, I did it and I am now planning to experiment.

4. Mica
5. Mica schist
6. Volcanic tuff
7. Granadiorite

While I'm mainly interested in inert inorganic components, feel free to comment on anything that you've been curious about as well. Ill add to this list and take pictures of the busted/sifted components in the future if this topic piques anyone's interest.

I find sieving and mixing the standard soil ingredients (akadama, pumice, and lava) tedious enough as it is. And now you’re recommending buying soil components that have to be “busted up” before sieving? Uh... no thank you!

 

[Anthony]

silica based gravel
crushed red earthenware house building block
all forms of leca

urganic
sifted aged compost

Good Day
Anthony

* we also have a sea bonded clay - from then Mayo hills.
works well

 

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

I find sieving and mixing the standard soil ingredients (akadama, pumice, and lava) tedious enough as it is. And now you’re recommending buying soil components that have to be “busted up” before sieving? Uh... no thank you!

Haha, tedious enough indeed! I absolutely do not recommend buying and sifting these. I'm not implying that these even have any potential to be good. I do however want to hear anyone's opinion towards what the potential for these components are and how they compare to the similar "golden standard". This is meant to be a fun post about any component one may come across in their horticultural lifetime that they may think could have potential merit for being used in a bonsai soil. Regardless, I appreciate your comment.

 

[Colorado Josh]

My wife collected some sandstone pebbles from an ant hill in the desert. She's used it as a component for her cactus mix. So far it has worked great!

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Untreated perlite can be high in fluoride and asbestos.
Not a big fan.

I use sand stone (or at least the calcium rocks we call sand stone around here) on my longeava pines.

 

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

silica based gravel
crushed red earthenware house building block
all forms of leca

urganic
sifted aged compost

Good Day
Anthony

* we also have a sea bonded clay - from then Mayo hills.
works well

I actually use silica gravel (2-3mm silicon dioxide) in all my carnivorous plant mixes as well as a sub for crushed granite in my developemental bonsai mixes. I buy it from a local nursery, they sell it in very heavy 1 cu ft bags pre-sifted and cleaned in uniform 2-3mm particles, "Elmore's pool filter gravel". I sift it and mainly use the 3 mm for trees in development and the 2 mm for CP's and Acer/etc. seedlings. It does it's job as a substitute for crushed granite (if chosen to use in a soil mix).

I don't use compost of any sort as a soil component or fertilizer in any container soil mix, bonsai or otherwise, however I won't deny that some people have found a way to make it work for them.

Is the sea bonded clay from the Mayo hills similar to diatomite? Could you tell me more about it?

Thank you for commenting.

 

[AJL]

I have in the past used fine river gravel, collected from a nearby river bank ,which was quite attractive when wet, but heavy to carry back to the car . The main disadvantage I found was that it needed washing to remove silt and then loads of Himalayan balsam seedlings germinated from it, so I didnt bother repeating the trial! If it was weed-free it could make an attractive top dressing.
In Britain Himalayan balsam is one of the introduced invasive weed species which has colonised our river valleys , along with Giant Hogweed, Japanese Knotweed and Skunk cabbage!
Ive also tried Leca which was cheaper than Akadama, lightweight and seemed to work well when I added it to the soil mix

 

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

Untreated perlite can be high in fluoride and asbestos.
Not a big fan.

I use sand stone (or at least the calcium rocks we call sand stone around here) on my longeava pines.

According to the perlite institute and their many tests (please correct me if I'm wrong) no asbestos has been found inside of the perlite they mine, in addition asbestos and perlite are usually not found together in nature. The levels of fluoride in horticultural perlite, while definitely present, are in very weak quantities that have been found (in scientific studies) to not contribute to fluoride toxicity in plants that are the most susceptible. It is possible that they could be present in much higher quantities in unprocessed perlite. I thoroughly leach and wash every soil component I use regardless to dilute any presence of mineral buildup, and hopefully fluoride. I have used unprocessed perlite in an uncontrolled experiment with my carnivorous plants and have anecdotally observed no evidence of fluoride toxicity (I could have gotten a batch with weaker levels/ leechings could be removing what is possibly harmful). Reguardless, I'm sure the majority would agree with you, that it's better to be on the safe side. When you are growing trees of considerable value (and perhaps priceless sentimental value) I can completely understand why it wouldn't be worth taking the risk.

I have always wanted an older specimen of bristlecone pine. Do you use the sandstone because they grow around it in the wild? Or -If you collect them, do you bring the sandstone in with the roots? I am curious

Thank you for commenting.

 

[Ohmy222]

Perlite is low budget substitute for pumice. Very similar but too light for a bonsai mix. Use it all the time for small material and have used it as a drainage layer in large grow boxes too. Also root all cuttings in a mix of 2-3 parts perlite, one part peat.

I use to use a pre-made Mix that had silica sand in it and had no issues. I just use APL mix now but have several where I have DE vs akadama with PL.

 

[BuckeyeOne]

I actually use silica gravel (2-3mm silicon dioxide)

I started out using the same sand in my soil mix.
I found out that it as a little small for my preference. About the same as small Turface. Tended to clog up screens at the bottom of my pots.
I find that 4-6mm is a good size. Good drainage, but most importantly, it breathes! Water in, water on the way out brings in air!

 

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

My wife collected some sandstone pebbles from an ant hill in the desert. She's used it as a component for her cactus mix. So far it has worked great!

I too, have used some of the harder sandstones (3mm particles) in conjunction with crushed granite and pumice to grow different species of cactus. I've also grown various lithops from seed as well as Andansonia grandidieri and digitata in a 50/50 crushed sandstone/pumice mix. I like the amount of water retention I get with some of the denser sandstones.
Thanks for your comment.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

In the past I ended up with a couple bags of rubber mulch, made from old automotive tires, shredded, chopped, and dyed black. Just to prove a point I grew a Phalaenopsis orchid in it and bloomed it beautifully. You can grow anything in just about anything IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHEN and HOW to WATER.

I used up the rest of the rubber mulch as a minor component of my bonsai mix. It never breaks down, but does look much like particles of charcoal.

Once gone, I have never purchased any more rubber tire mulch. It is good stuff for playgrounds, children seem to bounce of the stuff.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I have always wanted an older specimen of bristlecone pine. Do you use the sandstone because they grow around it in the wild? Or -If you collect them, do you bring the sandstone in with the roots? I am curious

I grow a couple from seed. Year three now. Some very experienced people on this forum have tried growing them at low elevations and failed, so I'm happy I even got this far but I'm not expecting to do better. I'm at roughly 20 meters above sea level.
I use sandstone because I'm trying to emulate to their native habitat.
Collecting them would be awesome, but I'm a couple thousand miles from their home country.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Untreated perlite can be high in fluoride and asbestos.
Not a big fan.

I use sand stone (or at least the calcium rocks we call sand stone around here) on my longeava pines.

Not all sandstone is created equally. As you mentioned your sandstone has a fair amount of calcium - suggesting at least a portion of the parent rock that the sandstone is composed of was limestone.

In other areas, sandstone is derived from sand created by erosion of granites, these sandstones will be very low in calcium. At home, around the Great Lakes, most of the sand here (Lake Michigan) has a significant amount of calcium. Sand quarried along Lake Superior especially in Minnesota and The Canadian side of Lake Superior is nearly pure silica, with near zero limestone. So "sand" have various properties depending on where it was quarried.

There are 3 species of pine that are considered "Bristlecone Pines", Pinus aristata is found growing only on limestone scree, at high elevation, where the limestone ends, and is replaced with granite, Pinus flexilis, the Limber PIne takes over. Pinus balfouriana comes from Maffic soils in California. The mafic soils are high in manganese, and iron, and are poor in other nutrients. A unique environment. I don't know what the soils are that Pinus longaeva comes from.

I don't know if these 3 pines are "obligated" to have their native soil chemistry replicated in cultivation, they occur in those soils because they can outcompete other species in the same area. But they may be perfectly happy in our standard soils. I don't know. But it is interesting how geography / geology influences distribution. I suspect that P. balfouriana will do fine in our "better soils", that it doesn't need the near toxic mafic soils to survive. It is found on mafic soils because it tolerates mafic conditions where other species will not. It might not "need" mafic conditions to thrive.

 

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

Not all sandstone is created equally. As you mentioned your sandstone has a fair amount of calcium - suggesting at least a portion of the parent rock that the sandstone is composed of was limestone.

In other areas, sandstone is derived from sand created by erosion of granites, these sandstones will be very low in calcium. At home, around the Great Lakes, most of the sand here (Lake Michigan) has a significant amount of calcium. Sand quarried along Lake Superior especially in Minnesota and The Canadian side of Lake Superior is nearly pure silica, with near zero limestone. So "sand" have various properties depending on where it was quarried.

There are 3 species of pine that are considered "Bristlecone Pines", Pinus aristata is found growing only on limestone scree, at high elevation, where the limestone ends, and is replaced with granite, Pinus flexilis, the Limber PIne takes over. Pinus balfouriana comes from Maffic soils in California. The mafic soils are high in manganese, and iron, and are poor in other nutrients. A unique environment. I don't know what the soils are that Pinus longaeva comes from.

I don't know if these 3 pines are "obligated" to have their native soil chemistry replicated in cultivation, they occur in those soils because they can outcompete other species in the same area. But they may be perfectly happy in our standard soils. I don't know. But it is interesting how geography / geology influences distribution. I suspect that P. balfouriana will do fine in our "better soils", that it doesn't need the near toxic mafic soils to survive. It is found on mafic soils because it tolerates mafic conditions where other species will not. It might not "need" mafic conditions to thrive.

I have found that all of the plants that I cultivate at home that occur in nature, from acidic peat bogs to limestone cliffs, grow as well or even better in an inert soil and fertilized frequently with a liquid synthetic fertilizer having a ratio that matches the ratio of elements plants use, diluted in reverse osmosis/distilled water to make a weak solution, and applied at a rate (usually every time I water) of which plants can use them. I do believe you are correct or IOW some species of trees grow in habitats that would be toxic to other species because they have evolved to do so. It's not necessary to replicate this in cultivation.

 

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

I started out using the same sand in my soil mix.
I found out that it as a little small for my preference. About the same as small Turface. Tended to clog up screens at the bottom of my pots.
I find that 4-6mm is a good size. Good drainage, but most importantly, it breathes! Water in, water on the way out brings in air!

True, I wish they sold 4-6mm bags locally but I only use the 3mm for some tree species when I happen to be out of (Mana pro poultry grit) granite. I also get granite from home Depot (paver base) for much cheaper but it is wet and very heavy and such a pain sifting out all the granite sand and smaller particles before I have sizes resembling the Mana pro granite.

 

[Cascading-Echinocactus]

I have in the past used fine river gravel, collected from a nearby river bank ,which was quite attractive when wet, but heavy to carry back to the car . The main disadvantage I found was that it needed washing to remove silt and then loads of Himalayan balsam seedlings germinated from it, so I didnt bother repeating the trial! If it was weed-free it could make an attractive top dressing.
In Britain Himalayan balsam is one of the introduced invasive weed species which has colonised our river valleys , along with Giant Hogweed, Japanese Knotweed and Skunk cabbage!
Ive also tried Leca which was cheaper than Akadama, lightweight and seemed to work well when I added it to the soil mix

Alabama is a very biologically diverse state and more than a few times I have found river sand similar to kiryu (Japanese river sand). We also have Himalayan balsam spreading throughout the east coast.
What brand of LECA did you use and what size was it? Was it Tesco kitty litter or perhaps something you purchased from a hydroponic supply?

 

[AJL]

The Leca was of the type used by interior landscapers, roof gardens and hydroponic suppliers
it was described as 4/10mm Lightweight Expanded Clay:- here is the data sheet

 

[penumbra]

In the past I ended up with a couple bags of rubber mulch, made from old automotive tires, shredded, chopped, and dyed black. Just to prove a point I grew a Phalaenopsis orchid in it and bloomed it beautifully. You can grow anything in just about anything IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHEN and HOW to WATER.

I remember when this product was introduced, though I don't really remember 'When'. It was quite a number of years ago. The company that manufactured it gave a talk with quite a bit of study behind it at a nurseryman's convention I attended. The gist of the results was that, yes it blocked weeds like other mulches, but it had an accumulative effect and used long term it had a herbicidal effect on weeds as a pre-emergent. Can't say because I never used it.
Of course you know a phalaenopsis will grow in anything, as you said, if you know when and how to water. I know an orchid grower that grows orchids sucessfully in empty clay pots.