Opinions on a Dan Robinson idea about thickening the trunk?

[Carapace]

So I was watching an interview of Dan Robinson by Maria Walton from the PSBA Website youtube channel (The interview ). I know that Dan doesn't repot his trees, but he said something interesting about not repotting them, he said (at min. 57.03) that because the roots don't have the space to grow, the trunk grows.
I just want some opinions if anyone knows anything about this phenomenon.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I didn't watch the video, but this doesn't make sense to me. One must repot their trees at some point or the tree will eventually die. It may be one year, 2, 3, but it will need to be done at some point. I don't see how a lack of root growth would cause the trunk to thicken either. The trunk will thicken by allowing the tree to grow. Walter Pall compared it to how people get fatter - we eat more. And what trees eat is sugar produced by photosynthesis. The more leaves, the more photosynthesis, the more the tree eats and the fatter the trunk will get.

 

[PowerTap]

So I'm a PBSA member and I've heard Dan talk at meetings and it's important to know a few things about his approach.

1. His approach is to move a tree into a level of stasis. He is not trying to thicken up his trees. He starts with great trunks and makes bonsai out of them. He wants the amount of folliage and the amount of roots to be in ballance and then to have both of them stop growing.
2. He finds collected trees that have been growing in small pockets of soil for a long time and have somewhat selected themselves into being accommodating to a bonsai pot.
3. He's willing to lose branches and work with them as deadwood in pursuit of stasis.
4. He sees repotting as a high risk operation for trees and consciously avoids it for far longer than a lot of professionals would.
5. He's not classically trained in the Japanese way. He might have had teachers and has learned from a lot of people, but he's more self taught than not.
6. He loves carving trunks with power tools.

So he has a lot of non-standard techniques. If you are looking to do more conventional bonsai, I would not just do the things you hear Dan saying without really understanding it.

He is a renowned artist, and he's trees are amazing. But if you try to mesh what Dan is saying with other artists and teachers like Bjorn or Ryan Niel you'll have a hard time stitching it together.

Worth reading to understand Dan.

Bonsai Re-Defined — Elandan Gardens

www.elandangardens.com

 

[caffeinated]

Dan has grown a large number of trees in his collection from seed too though. He brought seed back from his service in Korea and has the trees to show for it. (or was that a smuggled tree or two, I forget) He is a big proponent of growing your trees in the ground.

 

[Srt8madness]

There is empirical evidence that rootbound trees do not put on trunk girth anything close to a bigger pot or ground growing. That's easily provable/disprovable.

NOW,

I think it's possible that a tree with roots that have filled a pot, will put on more growth than a tree which is root pruned annually. Sleep, creep, leap and all that.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

@PowerTap is right, Dan doesn’t repot his trees. Many have been in the same pot for over 25 years and more.

No the trees don’t die, they adapt.

I know this seems odd to a ‘traditional bonsai person’, where trees are routinely repotted. But Dan has created a whole different take on bonsai and has made it work for him and others who hace worked with him. Gnarly, ancient looking, unconventional vestiges of the arduous life in the environment.

The tree roots eventually push the tree upward, and yes this makes the ’trunk thicken’ but in an unconventional way.

Here’s a couple images to illustrate the concept. Not the best examples, but all I had at home.


cheers
DSD sends

 

[dacoontz]

My two cents, etc….I’ve spoken with one of his apprentices and he does in fact repot his trees in many cases. He grows many in the ground until trunk is to the caliber that he desires and ready to be in a pot. He doesn’t seem to think a tree is ready for a pot until that basic step has been achieved from what I observed on a 1:1 visit to his garden (got lucky and visited on a slow day). However, at that point he seems to repot less frequently than what is typical. He also collects trees that for the most part don’t need time to develop a thicker trunk. So once these are ready for a bonsai pot, will also not get repotted often. He also will repot if he perceives a problem. I like to think of him as a tree listener and not a guy who follows rules just because.

 

[Carapace]

There is empirical evidence that rootbound trees do not put on trunk girth anything close to a bigger pot or ground growing. That's easily provable/disprovable.

NOW,

I think it's possible that a tree with roots that have filled a pot, will put on more growth than a tree which is root pruned annually. Sleep, creep, leap and all that.

I think that the roots just get fatter and fatter and by pushing the tree out of the pot I guess it makes it look thicker

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Sometimes, but not always. Aged trees in pockets in the rock on mountainsides can also look similar. Being a lifelong hiker in the mountains of the west I’ve seen many very similar trees.

Anyways, it’s always worth a visit to come on down, spend some time and study his trees. I found one can’t really appreciate Dan’s trees merely looking a 2D images.

I might add that a number of the techniques Dan initially pioneered are widely used nowadays.

A visit there is a good thing to put on your bonsai life punch list, along with the Pacific Bonsai Museum, which is not too far away. It will offer you quite a contrast in design ideas.

btw: Discovered more images of more Dan’s trees took last time we worked there.








cheers
DSD sends

 

[Carapace]

Sometimes, but not always. Aged trees in pockets in the rock on mountainsides can also look similar. Being a lifelong hiker in the mountains of the west I’ve seen many very similar trees.

Anyways, it’s always worth a visit to come on down, spend some time and study his trees. I found one can’t really appreciate Dan’s trees merely looking a 2D images.

I might add that a number of the techniques Dan initially pioneered are widely used nowadays.

A visit there is a good thing to put on your bonsai life punch list, along with the Pacific Bonsai Museum, which is not too far away. It will offer you quite a contrast in design ideas.

btw: Discovered more images of more Dan’s trees took last time we worked there.

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cheers
DSD sends

Well what can I say, I might aswell get a hardy tree, probably a pine of some sort or a larch and just put that guy in a pot and just let it grow. Guess I'll be seeing if works in about 10 years (I hope I won't kill in that time).

 

[MGTT]

There is some additional detail/context in the book, but in summary, here are two trees from the same group of seeds-one never repotted, and one regularly repotted. (From ‘The Art of Natural Bonsai’)

 

[Carapace]

There is some additional detail/context in the book, but in summary, here are two trees from the same group of seeds-one never repotted, and one regularly repotted. (From ‘The Art of Natural Bonsai’)

That is a very small pot and judging by how much the soil sticks up, the bottom of that pot must be just roots.

 

[MGTT]

Yes, that’s basically what the author stated.
The focus of the ‘experiment’ seemed more about seeing if you could keep a tree alive without repotting versus any other goal(s).

 

[BobbyLane]

His location right beside the water is epic. Perfect growing conditions with high humidity. Trees look like theyre thriving.

 

[milehigh_7]

I'm friends with some people who know him very well if you have questions about his technique. I will get them answered for you.

 

[dansai]

In Australia we have some trees that will most definitely thicken up better when root bound. Banksia serrata, and to a lesser degree, Banksia integrifolia, will both put on rapid trunk girth once they become pot bound and are often left for over 10 years between repots to achieve this. The theory is that the sugars being produced in the leaves have nowhere to go when travelling down to the roots so get stored on the trunk. Ive seen a few examples and spoken directly with people that have used this technique successfully.

It is often stated that our figs will continue to thicken well in pots too without a need to put in larger pots or in the ground. I have experienced this myself though not from being potbound as such.

As for other species experiencing the same thing, I have no idea.

 

[leatherback]

The theory is that the sugars being produced in the leaves have nowhere to go when travelling down to the roots so get stored on the trunk.

Yup, this is what I have been theorizing too re. something I see happening in a garden near me.

A befriended bonsai couple near me never allows their trees to grow out. They start pinching from day one. Heavy fertilizer. In a bonsai pot. Full sun. And they get trunk development to the max, where people see trees they bought a few years before as nursery pencils, and now are show-worthy, several inch thick maples.
I think this was 12 years in a pot, from a cutting.

 

[Carapace]

I'm friends with some people who know him very well if you have questions about his technique. I will get them answered for you.

I know he grew a black pine I think it was for about 17 years in the ground, but I know he also doesn't like cuttings roots off of trees. I was wondering if he did uproot them and cut their roots or just somehow managed to keep enough roots close to the trunk in all those years. I have a piece of land that is just perfect for growing pines and I kind of wanted to do that too.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

I know he grew a black pine I think it was for about 17 years in the ground, but I know he also doesn't like cuttings roots off of trees. I was wondering if he did uproot them and cut their roots or just somehow managed to keep enough roots close to the trunk in all those years. I have a piece of land that is just perfect for growing pines and I kind of wanted to do that too.

Dan very rarely repots his trees. The last time we were at Elandan Gardens Dan was repotting a tree - because the storm knocked it off its stand.

Otherwise the major work that is done to style and carve the trees. For styling Dan far prefers guy wires, similar to what Walter Pall does.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[penumbra]

There is right and there is right, and there is everything in between.