Zuisho in a bad way

[bwaynef]

I don’t know how well the title translates outside of the south but the picture probably makes it make sense.

This tree recently came to me to see if it can recover in my yard. I have low hopes for it. The green parts have new growth on the ends.

In mid-April-ish it was repotted into equal parts Lava, Akadama, and Pumice out of if I’m remembering correctly straight akadama. I wasn’t there when it was repotted but I have my suspicions that more roots than necessary were removed, likely because of the soil change. It also isn’t completely stable in the pot. It doesn’t flop around but will move if you’re purposeful about checking whether it will.

It’s been treated with Talstar in case of pests, Daconil in case of fungus, and imidacloprid for any other pests.

The soil drains pretty quickly now but I’ve propped the pot in hopes of making sure the soil dries as quickly as possible. I’ve heard jwp are often handled with scary amounts of water. (Or scary amounts of not-water may be a better way of saying it.)

It’s situated where it gets shade about 2-3p.

It’s hard to sit by and watch but I don’t think there’s anything I can do to give it a better chance. Do you have any other ideas?

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Bummer. I would be inclined to give it less sun, especially if you can shade the pot a little. The tree would probably benefit from a deeper pot if it makes it to Spring. For a watering point of reference, if I water my JBP once daily in full sun, my Zuisho probably needs it about every day and a half.

I would also avoid the chemicals if the tree doesn’t have an infestation or fungal issue and start feeding it weekly with liquid fish emulsion.

Good luck.

 

[River's Edge]

With the repot and soil change I would be concerned about the amount of soil change and root work. the suggestion I would add is to use Micromax as a supplement to bolster the myccorhyzae , micro nutrients and beneficial bacteria in the soil. Or similar product. I would agree that dealing back on the full sun is appropriate in these circumstances.
Smaller quantities of Micromax are available through Julian Adams of Adams Bonsai if you decide to go that route. He is also an excellent source for information on Zuisho. He authored Growing Pines for Bonsaipublished in 2021. This book contains excellent information, in particular on Zuisho.

 

[bwaynef]

Thanks for the pointers bvf. I *THINK* this is the pot it was in previously, but it definitely seems shallow. I'll see what I can come up with for shade. The comment about fish surprises me as well. I figured it likely needed to go without any fertilizer, but at this point I'm open to ideas. The watering comment is helpful and confirms what I was thinking ...and maybe supports what I'm already doing in that regard.

Frank, I actually have some micromax from Julian several years ago. I'll have to see if I can find it. Maybe some weak fish emulsion & micromax will be just what it needs ...along with whatever shade I'm able to concoct. (I spent all that money having trees removed only to find I need more shade now.)

Thanks for the tips. I'm open to any more, particularly from zuisho owners.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

So very sorry to see this tree taking a dive. It must be heart breaking. That’s kind of how we feel when one of our trees are in trouble.

Pretty sure Zuisho can take more water than one thinks. Our zuisho is small, second year from Julian Adams. We keep it in morning sun and an hour late afternoon and water as if it is was an azalea in kanuma.

First impression when looking at the tree was the pot was too shallow for such a robust tree. Might work better in half shade until a better pot can be found.

Short of this shade cloth or multiple layers of screening would work well. We sometimes quickly build inexpensive frames for trees out of plastic water pipe/triple elbows, weighing down the bottom for large frames. This has the advantage of protecting the foliage.

One thing done here is to moss/tiny sedum over media really well including all pines, junipers etc. One way to do this quick is get plastic screening and cut to fit a couple layers of screen over the pot.

In any event wish both the tree and you the best.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[bwaynef]

I've moved it to a much shadier location away from the rest of my trees but where I'll still see it regularly. That ought to help it deal with the heat we're still getting too. I'll spend some time this weekend cleaning up the soil and may see about applying some moss. Boon teaches to apply just a light dusting of shredded sphagnum to lock the soil into place and this tree could definitely benefit from that. I'd just like to remove spent needles before I apply the moss.

 

[River's Edge]

Thanks for the pointers bvf. I *THINK* this is the pot it was in previously, but it definitely seems shallow. I'll see what I can come up with for shade. The comment about fish surprises me as well. I figured it likely needed to go without any fertilizer, but at this point I'm open to ideas. The watering comment is helpful and confirms what I was thinking ...and maybe supports what I'm already doing in that regard.

Frank, I actually have some micromax from Julian several years ago. I'll have to see if I can find it. Maybe some weak fish emulsion & micromax will be just what it needs ...along with whatever shade I'm able to concoct. (I spent all that money having trees removed only to find I need more shade now.)

Thanks for the tips. I'm open to any more, particularly from zuisho owners.

Julian devoted a chapter to exploring and explaining the yellow needle issues with Zuisho in the originally imported trees and during their introduction to North America. The summary observation is that Zuisho in particular seems to benefit from trace elements present in some natural soils but missing from commonly used bonsai mixes in North America. Also he takes care to point out that improvements showed with new growth and the following years spring growth, not the needles that yellowed prior to applying Micromax. Julian gave credit to observations made by a Texas bonsai enthusiast. Arch Hawkins.
I would obtain his book and focus on chapter fourteen and fifteen for tips on Zuisho.
I have been using his suggestions for a variety of five needle pines and have noticed an improvement in their condition. My general observation is that they do better in some shade, moister substrate and a bit deeper pots. I must admit that I have a bias towards a bit deeper pots for pines generally. Possibly because Boon always stressed a reasonable depth for pines when selecting a pot. I have noticed that Pines displayed in major international shows are always housed in deeper pots. Rarely less than 4 inch depth.

Separate thought: only remove needles if fully brown and dead. Julian noted that the yellow needle effect could and did continue for some time. I would not assume that they are not functioning to benefit the tree in some way during recovery.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Great about more shade.

Totally concur with @River’s Edge about more shade and deeper pots. Started to use micromax when the Zuisho arrived last year on the JWP. Haven’t noticed any difference, except in the Zuisho which was really beat up when arrived and now is healthy and robust.

So hard to tell if it is pure horticultural care or micromax or both. I did add some akadama and Biochar to Julian’s media to retain more water and boost the rhizosphere.

Well aware of Boon , Bjorn etc aesthetic predilections towards ground covering. And totally respect this. After all display is important in bonsai

After having worked at PBM as a weekly volunteer for over five years working in the collection, including simple jobs like applying Uber thin layers of moss after repotting, his practice and many others have been imbedded firmly in the area of cerebral cortex on aesthetics.

But back at the ranch doing some myth busting in the collection for the past five years. These tasks have been answering the question:

“What’s best for the health of containerized trees?” (And what’s not?)

One of these experiments addresses, “Does a layer of heavy moss and/or other shallow rooted plants actually impede the flow of oxygen and water?”… reputed to damage the health of bonsai.

I can say after testing on a large number of species including juniper, JBP, various JWP, Mugo, JRP, Black Hills and Ezo Spruce,Limber Pine, Maples, Azaleas, and various and sundry other species unequivocally that this is absolutely not the case,

Rather this covering actually helps the media retain moisture, boosts the rhizosphere, and markedly improves resilience, strength, resistance to drought stress and disease and the overall heath of a bonsai…without damaging the tree’s aesthetic.

Have come down to the point thin layers, which are exceptionally hard to manage, are merely an aesthetic predilection and decrease rhizosphere health, drought and consequently disease resistance … in our collection.

Believe in the past years of testing the scientific method of fertilization at Mirai, Ryan Neal has on his own begun to advocate the use of materials that increase the health of the rhizosphere, including more moss and plant…and deeper pots.

Granted we do not have world class trees in our collection, merely ordinary bonsai some way better some need improvement, like most hobbyists. But that has allowed us to freely experiment

Anyways one persons backyard experiments. Your trees, your call.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[River's Edge]

Great about more shade.

Totally concur with @River’s Edge about more shade and deeper pots. Started to use micromax when the Zuisho arrived last year on the JWP. Haven’t noticed any difference, except in the Zuisho which was really beat up when arrived and now is healthy and robust.

So hard to tell if it is pure horticultural care or micromax or both. I did add some akadama and Biochar to Julian’s media to retain more water and boost the rhizosphere.

Well aware of Boon , Bjorn etc aesthetic predilections towards ground covering. And totally respect this. After all display is important in bonsai

After having worked at PBM as a weekly volunteer for over five years working in the collection, including simple jobs like applying Uber thin layers of moss after repotting, his practice and many others have been imbedded firmly in the area of cerebral cortex on aesthetics.

But back at the ranch doing some myth busting in the collection for the past five years. These tasks have been answering the question:

“What’s best for the health of containerized trees?” (And what’s not?)

One of these experiments addresses, “Does a layer of heavy moss and/or other shallow rooted plants actually impede the flow of oxygen and water?”… reputed to damage the health of bonsai.

I can say after testing on a large number of species including juniper, JBP, various JWP, Mugo, JRP, Black Hills and Ezo Spruce,Limber Pine, Maples, Azaleas, and various and sundry other species unequivocally that this is absolutely not the case,

Rather this covering actually helps the media retain moisture, boosts the rhizosphere, and markedly improves resilience, strength, resistance to drought stress and disease and the overall heath of a bonsai…without damaging the tree’s aesthetic.

Have come down to the point thin layers, which are exceptionally hard to manage, are merely an aesthetic predilection and decrease rhizosphere health, drought and consequently disease resistance … in our collection.

Believe in the past years of testing the scientific method of fertilization at Mirai, Ryan Neal has on his own begun to advocate the use of materials that increase the health of the rhizosphere, including more moss and plant…and deeper pots.

Granted we do not have world class trees in our collection, merely ordinary bonsai some way better some need improvement, like most hobbyists. But that has allowed us to freely experiment

Anyways one persons backyard experiments. Your trees, your call.

Cheers
DSD sends

Not sure if I read this correctly or if I misinterpreted the point with respect to Boon. When Boon taught the application of a thin layer of finely shredded sphagnum moss after repotting he did so as a temporary measure to aid in retaining moisture for a short period of time after the repotting. Not for aesthetic reasons or long term horticultural benefits which seems to be implied above. just clarifying. This is not based on what someone else said, this is based on attending his intensive program for many years and first hand knowledge and practise under his guidance.

 

[bwaynef]

Not sure if I read this correctly or if I misinterpreted the point with respect to Boon. When Boon taught the application of a thin layer of finely shredded sphagnum moss after repotting he did so as a temporary measure to aid in retaining moisture for a short period of time after the repotting. Not for aesthetic reasons or long term horticultural benefits which seems to be implied above. just clarifying. This is not based on what someone else said, this is based on attending his intensive program for many years and first hand knowledge and practise under his guidance.

That's also my take on why Boon has us apply a thin layer of sphagnum ...as well as preventing the soil from shifting. Less so on the soil shifting as he teaches the use of the tamping tool, but I'm not sure tamping the soil would be of much benefit right now, so locking it in place from above is what I was thinking.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Got it. Maybe misconstrued the background from Boon group here. Not dissing Boon in anyway. So please do not read that into my words.

Back to the point. Given a thin layer to start. So then what follows bare media?

Despite all the trees simply show the effects as stated. Robust and healthy.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[moriel]

I think it's great that you're trying to save this tree, I'm rooting for you. I have very limited experience with pines so I don't have any real contribution for this thread. I was taught that when pines show brown needles like that, it's too late to attempt anything. I hope you can save it, beautiful tree!

 

[River's Edge]

Back to the point. Given a thin layer to start. So then what follows bare media?

That depends on the situation. Hotter and drier climates, certain watering routines, may benefit from moss as you have indicated! A practise used for many generations by professionals when appropriate. ( nothing new here ) I have never found it needed in my climate or with the processes used in my nursery. I have many friends who use this technique because they are still working and have watering practises/times that require this approach. With many clients I have to remind them of the disadvantages of this approach when we discover bark damage from the moss too close upon the trunk and keeping the area too wet. Algae growing on the nebari and trunk due to excessive watering.
" Bare Soil"allows for careful judgement of moisture content and particle breakdown. One does need to work with the schedule and practise that work for them.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Thanks for the information.

Would guess the moss damage is a proper warning for those who do not regularly curate one’s trunks and base nebari?

As far as bare media goes definitely not our choice based upon our training and experience at PBM. Learning to properly water with moss on media is just part of the repertoire.

But that’s the beauty of bonsai. Lots of ways to do things… only to a point though!

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Pretty serendipitous….

As this thread was going on was cutting the trunk, nebari and performing soji to this ROR Korean Hornbeam…

Adding media and moss…



…and back on the bench again!



Happy Friday!
DSD sends

 

[bwaynef]

I'll let this thread ride for a while, but wanted to update. While going over the soil surface removing as many needles as I easily could, I noticed fertilizer prills that looked almost exactly like some of the smaller pumice in the mix. That led to about an hour going over picking off as many as I could. I got most of them. It looks like there were some from last year as well. Then I tightened the tiedown on one side and noticed the tree was noticeably firmer in the pot. Turned it around and did the same and the wire snapped. The solution isn't pretty, but I spliced in 3" or so of wire after cutting off the ends and twisted it onto the remaining ends. I think I've fixed the stability issue now. Finally I pinched off pieces of sphagnum so its much finer than as-purchased but not quite as fine as when I run it thru a sieve like normal. Then spread it evenly around the soil, but its not completely covering it. Then I tamped the soil/moss mix down so that its firm, level, and flat all the way around. Also applied 3/4 tsp of Micromax around the surface of the soil. (This was actually the first thing I did.) I've got fish emulsion & humic acid mixed up to apply tomorrow. I used less than half what I normally would for each.

Thanks again for the tips. We'll see what comes of all this. I don't have high hopes but would love to turn this tree around for its owner.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Well done.

Might consider adding cold pressed kelp in the ferts mix (humic acid : kelp about 5:1.)

Best of luck!
DSD sends

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Good luck man.

 

[River's Edge]

I'll let this thread ride for a while, but wanted to update. While going over the soil surface removing as many needles as I easily could, I noticed fertilizer prills that looked almost exactly like some of the smaller pumice in the mix. That led to about an hour going over picking off as many as I could. I got most of them. It looks like there were some from last year as well. Then I tightened the tiedown on one side and noticed the tree was noticeably firmer in the pot. Turned it around and did the same and the wire snapped. The solution isn't pretty, but I spliced in 3" or so of wire after cutting off the ends and twisted it onto the remaining ends. I think I've fixed the stability issue now. Finally I pinched off pieces of sphagnum so its much finer than as-purchased but not quite as fine as when I run it thru a sieve like normal. Then spread it evenly around the soil, but its not completely covering it. Then I tamped the soil/moss mix down so that its firm, level, and flat all the way around. Also applied 3/4 tsp of Micromax around the surface of the soil. (This was actually the first thing I did.) I've got fish emulsion & humic acid mixed up to apply tomorrow. I used less than half what I normally would for each.

Thanks again for the tips. We'll see what comes of all this. I don't have high hopes but would love to turn this tree around for its owner.

Best wishes, the waiting can be hard, Hoping for a positive outcome.